Discovery 2017

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  • lrgcoffee
    Member Since: 18 Sep 2019
    Location: US
    Posts: 11
    United States 
    2019 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Scotia Grey

    US TD Owners - What is your dealer experience wrt DPF & FIO?

    US TDV6 owners, what is your opinion on the level of knowledge your dealers have on your diesels & exhaust systems?

    I have a 2019 D5 and have been dealing with the early service due message recently. My dealer appears to know nothing about the issues related to DPF regen, oil dilution calculation, and the early service reminders. They have assured me that the message has nothing to do with anything but a faulty clock in the software. They say that the car thinks its been in service for a year, even though it rolled off the production line in January.

    The bad reality is that my dealer is, either out of negligence or ignorance, advising me to dismiss a legitimate warning from my vehicle that could shorten the life of my engine.

    This dealer told me that these cars don't have technology that takes anything other than mileage and time into consideration for the service due reminders. This isn't a service adviser that I'm talking about. Its the service manager/director. I referenced JLRP00100 to them to see how knowledgeable they were with the TD diesel issues. He knew nothing about this bulletin.

    Alarmed that my service manager didn't seem to have any domain knowledge on TDs and the issues that are specific to JLR's architecture, I decided to call some other dealers and ask, generally, what their knowledge levels were around D5 diesels, the DPF, and potential issues related to oil dilution.

    One dealer I spoke to said that I didn't need to worry because they would change the DPF with each annual maintenance.

    Another dealer advised me that, to avoid the service light, I would have to drive at least 10 miles every day, at a minimum of 30mph, with no stops. They said this was applicable to diesels and petrol engines.

    I've now dealt with 3 dealers who seem to be dangerously uneducated on how to properly care for the most expensive and vital component of my new car. I find this to be terrifying and maddening. When I bought this car, I expected, for the price, that I would have access to experienced and highly trained service professionals. That doesn't seem to be anywhere close to what the reality is in my local dealer service departments.

    Does anyone in the US have a dealer who has exhibited a respectable level of competence on this topic?
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 545
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Your Td6 likely does not need any oil changes any more frequently than about 10,000 miles or so. I've had my oil independently tested throughout its 30,000 mile life so far and every single time it over-estimates its FIO state, often with no detectable fuel in oil when the car thinks it needs an oil change.

    Test your oil independently. I suggest Blackstone Labs. Go by their recommendation.

    My dealer admits there is little they can do if there are no specific service notices out there. The bulletin you reference was never issued in the US, or if it was, it was rescinded. My dealer had no record of it and contacted LRNA and they too said they had no record of it.

    It's not the dealer's fault - all they can do is report the concern, run the tests JLR's software diagnostic or tech support tells them to run, and then recommend to either service or wait. After dealing with LR's CRC and my dealer, I've resolved to change it on 10,000 mile intervals and keep testing intermittently to watch for FIO as the vehicle ages.

    Also - the DPF never needs "changing". It's not a consumable item like an air or oil filter. If they said the words, "change the DPF," then I hope that was a service advisor and not the actual technician. If it was the technician, then never go to that dealer for service ever again.
  • lrgcoffee
    Member Since: 18 Sep 2019
    Location: US
    Posts: 11
    United States 
    2019 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Scotia Grey

    That's good advice, but I do have a couple of complicating factors.

    1) That was the service director who claimed that DPF was changed with annual service. That's not as bad as having a tech say it, but it is worse than just hearing it from an advisor. He backed off that claim once I explained that the DPF was a fixed part of the exhaust system and would require disassembling the system to remove and replace (and would cost several thousand dollars). The point is, he should know what the DPF is, but he didn't.

    2) The dealer *should* have taken my complaint, consulted with JLR's technical advisory group, and run some tests to see if my fault was caused by the system calculating a high oil dilution value based on the number of DPF regen attempts/cycles performed - BUT - they did not do this. Instead, they wrote it off to a non-existent fault in the timer portion of the service due system. They discounted all concerns I raised about oil dilution (because they didn't know what that term meant) and they reset the counter without any analysis. This put me back on the road with a potentially false sense of security that all is well with the car.

    My Local dealer (where I bought my car) has admitted to not having any experience with diesels. I think my TD6 may be the only one they've sold or seen. Conversations like what's depicted in #1 above make me extremely uneasy about taking my car to them. It also makes it very hard to cut them a check for any maintenance services.

    I've called other regional dealers to attempt to gauge their capability with respect to dealing with the jlr diesel platform. I haven't been impressed with their knowledge.

    Based on what I've seen, I am concerned that I don't have a competent source for information and care of my very expensive vehicle. I'm curious if others in the US have had the same experiences.
  • mordred1973
    Member Since: 08 Jan 2019
    Location: Northamptonshire
    Posts: 465
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Fuji White

    To be fair, the UK dealers have almost exclusive experience in diesels and they talk absolute Censored too. Before they then dont do anything they're supposed to and the stuff they do they generally do badly.

    Its the JLR way, i am sure JLR have a special training programme to make the dealers consistently incompetent

    2017 HSE Td6 with Capability plus pack, wade sensing, parking heater, armest fridge, head up display and surround cameras, 4 zone climate, black pack, privacy glass, adaptive headlamps, intelligent seat fold, deployable tow bar, side steps.
  • Road Runner 2017
    Member Since: 14 Jan 2017
    Location: Scotland
    Posts: 1756
    Scotland 
    2018 Discovery Si6 HSE Lux Santorini Black

    Yes it's called the LR Dummies Guide for every bullsh## excuse under the sun Laughing

    Seems they have a little black book, all coming back with the same lame excuse, and answers, parrot fashion.

    I have experienced this first hand, after talking too several people at Head Office, sugar coating stuff and not answering your questions. Going of on a totally different tangent. All the replies were virtually identical word for word.

    Some of the explainations were laughable. It's like an adult talking to a 5 year old kid and tricking them into believing that Santa exists.

    Am like FFS credit me with some intelligence if you think you can feed me rubbish like that.

    Its like listening to a 5 year old kid, with the crap they try and feed you Rolling with laughter

    MY17 First Edition - 3L Diesel Td6 - Farallon Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips.
    MY18 Hse Luxury - 3L Petrol Si6 Supercharged - Santorini Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips,22's,tv,dynamic pack 1,bonnet vents,dual view,frontcooler,360┬░camera,rear cooler/warmer,roof vane,black LR badges,wade sensing,door sill plates,solar screen,wind deflectors,service plan,tracker,speed camera detector,dual dash cameras,ceramic coating.
  • mordred1973
    Member Since: 08 Jan 2019
    Location: Northamptonshire
    Posts: 465
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Fuji White

    As you say Roadrunner i have more convincing conversations with my 10 year old daughter.

    My dealer "gave me" an additiinal year warranty as a way to stop me whingeing about an issue. Been waiting since june for the paperwork. Complained to the group CEO (they have over 100 dealerships of many brands) and got a reply from the Dealer Prinicple saying "sorry we have been asked by the JLR franchise director to process this warranty 3x since june and just havent done it"

    Again, my 10 year old could come up with better, they havent dont it a) because theyre incompetent b) because they think I'll go away and they wont have to pay for it.

    Like at delivery they forgot to undertake any of the approved used JLR checks, they forgot to pump the tyres up, they forgot to put the load compartment cover in.

    2017 HSE Td6 with Capability plus pack, wade sensing, parking heater, armest fridge, head up display and surround cameras, 4 zone climate, black pack, privacy glass, adaptive headlamps, intelligent seat fold, deployable tow bar, side steps.
  • Road Runner 2017
    Member Since: 14 Jan 2017
    Location: Scotland
    Posts: 1756
    Scotland 
    2018 Discovery Si6 HSE Lux Santorini Black

    I know exactly where your coming from. My 5 year old comes up with more believable excuses.

    I think the way they parrot feed you answers, and deny that an issue exists, even though they are fully aware of problems, is that if they do admit it, then any potential lawsuits will have good ammunition. The excuses book must have been draughted by their own legal department.

    Deny everying, just like they fully knew about the oil dilution issue !!

    Oh yes ­čÄů does exist as I have seen him at the shopping centre Laughing

    MY17 First Edition - 3L Diesel Td6 - Farallon Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips.
    MY18 Hse Luxury - 3L Petrol Si6 Supercharged - Santorini Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips,22's,tv,dynamic pack 1,bonnet vents,dual view,frontcooler,360┬░camera,rear cooler/warmer,roof vane,black LR badges,wade sensing,door sill plates,solar screen,wind deflectors,service plan,tracker,speed camera detector,dual dash cameras,ceramic coating.
  • lrgcoffee
    Member Since: 18 Sep 2019
    Location: US
    Posts: 11
    United States 
    2019 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Scotia Grey

    Thanks, guys

    I was starting to feel like I was being overly cynical for this group. Looks like I fit right in.

    Thumbs Up
  • Road Runner 2017
    Member Since: 14 Jan 2017
    Location: Scotland
    Posts: 1756
    Scotland 
    2018 Discovery Si6 HSE Lux Santorini Black

    My advice is take everything with a pinch of salt, and go with your gut instinct. What you would consider to be right or wrong, rather than listen to the cock and bull you may well be fed. End of the day it's about using your common sense Thumbs Up

    However as the saying goes, 'Common Sense Is Not So Common', and certainly lacking with some of the laughable fairy stories I have been fed.
    Reminds me of Jackanory Laughing

    I had issues with my last car after only 18 months old from new. The car started too judder and the steering wheel was shaking when braking. It transpired that the front discs had warped.

    Car was never track raced, nor were the brakes ever abused. Had Brembos all round, along with drilled and grooved discs which help prevent overheating.

    Well the garage told me they wanted £1000 just to get the front 2 discs replaced, plus £250 to fit front pads.

    Your discs have warped due to you living on the coast and the sea salt has caused excess corrosion, or you have been racing it on the track, as badly warped and discs have scored. Not covered by warranty they claimed. (Mrs only occasionally drove it around town when I was away, just to keep the battery from dying as the tracker used to kill the battery) .

    I was like I don't think so. Got HQ involved and they said the same thing. I said how can you even proove that, without even seeing the state of the discs, let alone seeing any photos. I also offered to send them all the tracker journeys to prove it was never on a racetrack.

    Anyway I told them this is my 4th model of the same car, and I have lived in the same house, and never had an issue in the last 9 years I previously owned the last 3 cars from new.

    Cars washed weekly and in garage for 2 weeks at a time, after taking the car for a spin around the block to dry brakes out. Do you think I have been driving in the salty sea water I asked them?

    They tried to bullsh## me with terminology. However I had the last laugh, as I mentioned that the rubbish they were telling me was contradictory. I had them backed into a corner, as I dropped the bombshell that I work with corrosion engineers as part of my job.

    After all the arguing I told them, if that's the case then the rear discs will need replacing as well as you have suggested. Basically the crap they told me, they dug themselves into a hole and then they backtracked saying the rears don't need replaced, as they knew I had caught them out.

    Well I got the front discs replaced free of charge, and bought a set of original pads at a fraction of the dealers price and got them fitted free of charge, along with a free service 6 months later as an apology for the inconvenience I had, along with the Porky Pies I was told.

    It transpired on the forum that several others had suffered the same issue, after I posted up my issue, and that the discs were of inferior quality and this was causing the warping issues. I think they had outsourced the discs from China, to save a few quid, hence the inferior quality, and a recall was finally issued.

    Mind you the most disturbing case I have seen is fake brake pads from China, made entirely of compressed grass. Absolutely shocking and no regard for human life. Would disintegrate as soon as you hit the brakes. Censored

    Seems life is sadly cheap over there Shocked Censored


    Last edited by Road Runner 2017 on 1st Oct 2019 8:20 pm. Edited 5 times in total

    MY17 First Edition - 3L Diesel Td6 - Farallon Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips.
    MY18 Hse Luxury - 3L Petrol Si6 Supercharged - Santorini Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips,22's,tv,dynamic pack 1,bonnet vents,dual view,frontcooler,360┬░camera,rear cooler/warmer,roof vane,black LR badges,wade sensing,door sill plates,solar screen,wind deflectors,service plan,tracker,speed camera detector,dual dash cameras,ceramic coating.
  • mordred1973
    Member Since: 08 Jan 2019
    Location: Northamptonshire
    Posts: 465
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Fuji White

    Have to say, my 12 months experience with LR dealers and my D5 has indeed taught me one thing, that its my first and definitely my last JLR product. If i could afford to swap it now, i would

    2017 HSE Td6 with Capability plus pack, wade sensing, parking heater, armest fridge, head up display and surround cameras, 4 zone climate, black pack, privacy glass, adaptive headlamps, intelligent seat fold, deployable tow bar, side steps.
  • Road Runner 2017
    Member Since: 14 Jan 2017
    Location: Scotland
    Posts: 1756
    Scotland 
    2018 Discovery Si6 HSE Lux Santorini Black

    It varies from dealer too dealer, some are good and some are bad. Can't fault my dealer, as opposed too my last dealer. Like chalk and cheese. Plus I think if your enthusiastic and know about your car, rather than plead ignorance, they are less likely to pull the wool over your eyes as will think wait a minute this guy knows a thing or too.

    I have had to go to my car dealer who are mainly a Ford dealership who had no experience of my brand, when they became the new agents, and I had to show them how to fit stuff as they never had a clue, and told me it can't be done. The techs were so impressed that jokingly offered me a job Laughing

    Likewise at LR I had to show them how to fit the A bar and wire up the Aux spot lights as they said they never knew how to do them as were not the plug and play ones, but after market ones. Had to do that twice on both LRS.

    I also had tubular side steps fitted by the dealer and again told me that the genuine front mudflaps wont fit, as the fronts of the tubes protruded past where the front flaps were to be fitted. Dealer fitted the rear flaps ok though.

    I ended up cutting out a perfect circle for the tubes to go through the front flaps and fitted perfectly. Dealer was impressed, at such a neat fit, but obviously I can see their point as its not their job to be drilling big holes in the flaps. Plus after paying for the flaps I was not going to just leave them in the garage, as the car looked a bit silly with only the rear flaps on. A little bit of adjusting and tweaking and all sorted.

    Am pretty hands on in my spare time, so obviously I am learning as I go along which has been benificial in my opinion. Am in no way an expert, but I take pride in my work, and it has to be perfect. I think the OCD kicks in Laughing

    Nowadays even total novices can get it right after watching youtube Thumbs Up

    MY17 First Edition - 3L Diesel Td6 - Farallon Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips.
    MY18 Hse Luxury - 3L Petrol Si6 Supercharged - Santorini Black - Roof rails,side steps,tints,tow bar,mudflaps,door strips,22's,tv,dynamic pack 1,bonnet vents,dual view,frontcooler,360┬░camera,rear cooler/warmer,roof vane,black LR badges,wade sensing,door sill plates,solar screen,wind deflectors,service plan,tracker,speed camera detector,dual dash cameras,ceramic coating.
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 545
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    lrgcoffee wrote:
    That's good advice, but I do have a couple of complicating factors.

    1) That was the service director who claimed that DPF was changed with annual service. That's not as bad as having a tech say it, but it is worse than just hearing it from an advisor. He backed off that claim once I explained that the DPF was a fixed part of the exhaust system and would require disassembling the system to remove and replace (and would cost several thousand dollars). The point is, he should know what the DPF is, but he didn't.

    2) The dealer *should* have taken my complaint, consulted with JLR's technical advisory group, and run some tests to see if my fault was caused by the system calculating a high oil dilution value based on the number of DPF regen attempts/cycles performed - BUT - they did not do this. Instead, they wrote it off to a non-existent fault in the timer portion of the service due system. They discounted all concerns I raised about oil dilution (because they didn't know what that term meant) and they reset the counter without any analysis. This put me back on the road with a potentially false sense of security that all is well with the car.

    My Local dealer (where I bought my car) has admitted to not having any experience with diesels. I think my TD6 may be the only one they've sold or seen. Conversations like what's depicted in #1 above make me extremely uneasy about taking my car to them. It also makes it very hard to cut them a check for any maintenance services.

    I've called other regional dealers to attempt to gauge their capability with respect to dealing with the jlr diesel platform. I haven't been impressed with their knowledge.

    Based on what I've seen, I am concerned that I don't have a competent source for information and care of my very expensive vehicle. I'm curious if others in the US have had the same experiences.


    What part of the country do you live in? Diesels are fairly common in the West past Corn Country and my dealer seems to do a fair bit of business with them. Northeast, Southeast, Midwest, and Cali I would bet they don't see too many.

    I second the sentiment of staying firm and persistent but polite. I personally think after Dieselgate all manufacturers' policies with respect to diesel issues associated with emissions is to dig in because they don't want to get into a buyback situation spurred by a class action, so they give out little to no information to the customer-facing side of the business, to include the dealers and CRC associates.

    Unfortunately this just frustrates owners. In this case I can let it go, as the alternative is simply wasting good motor oil (and the associated hundred and fifty bucks) by changing it too soon.
  • lrgcoffee
    Member Since: 18 Sep 2019
    Location: US
    Posts: 11
    United States 
    2019 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Scotia Grey

    As much as it Censored me off, I can look past the fact that my dealer service department is an incompetent bunch that I'm mandated to pay extortion-level oil change service fees to as long as I'm under warranty.

    What I can't abide is not being able to adjust my service schedule based on vehicle needs.

    If I follow the service reminders from the car, I'll be changing my oil 2-3x per year. I hear there's a software update that modifies the service due calculation algorithm to make the reminder frequency more realistic. That update does not show up on my recalls/service actions, so my dealer won't touch it. Their response is that I can a) follow my conscience and pay for the oil change every time the light goes off or b) ignore the light and have them reset it at the peril of the life of my car. Those are Censored options.

    If I had my own way to monitor regens and oil dilution, this would help greatly. I'm going to start taking oil samples and having them tested every 6 months. This will give me a better insight. Maybe it will give me the peace-of-mind needed.

    What will not ease up is my outrage over the fact that JLR sells us these cars, but provides zero support for its customers who want to do what is necessary to maximize the life of their cars.
  • jimbg
    Member Since: 23 Jun 2016
    Location: Devon
    Posts: 1192
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    There is an email address for the CEO that floats around on these forums, maybe someone can post it here for you?
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 545
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    I just had my annual service done, mentioned the car seems to do fine until I take a road trip then it drops oil life service counter sometimes 10:1. He pulled some data and re-applied a service counter update that lets them reset separate counters (mileage clock, oil life, etc), but I know better.

    Interestingly, this time he added BG Diesel Oil Conditioner, which sounds a bit to me like they are acknowledging the dealer-supplied Castrol is inadequate for purpose. I mean, why would they need additives if the manufacturer spec / certified oil is sufficient??
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