Discovery 2017

↓ Advertise on DISCO5.CO.UK ↓

  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 549
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Ok, hang on a minute. This is for the Disco Sport with the Ingenium 2.0. That's apples and oranges to the Lion 3.0 Td6. And JLR promises a 21,000 mile service interval? I can see that for a gasser but definitely not for a diesel. To get 12,000 miles between oil changes on a turbodiesel is actually pretty good. Honestjohn states that some owners are experiencing early service notifications between 6,000 and 12,000 miles "depending on driving style." In my experience. Nearly every diesel here in the US, including the big heavy duty 6.0L+ jobs in US pickups, require oil changes at 12,000 miles or less, just because of the demands on the engine oil. Post-combustion injection is nothing new and it's used in almost all of them.

    I would recommend anyone with early service indicators take some oil and send it out for an independent analysis once it reaches the "service now" stage, and post it here. There are two likely scenarios - 1), this is normal and due to Dieselgate and the increased scrutiny on diesel engines they have to increase the volume of post-combustion injection and AdBlue usage to meet requirements on-road, or 2) there is a better-than-nothing chance that the vehicle's calibration is a bit off and a software update will be coming. My money is on 1, but it could be both.

    My dealer told me the service interval is 8,000-10,000 miles for my Td6, while the manual still states 15,000 miles or one year, which I never believed anyway.
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    Iron Maiden

    Already onto the Oil Analysis for >3 months - DS has got Iron coming out in massive amounts, and it's linear so can't be "running in" problem..
    https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6132

    Statistically there's a 95.3% correlation between vehicle mileage and Iron.
    https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtop...580#p77079

    It's caused by the Hardware and Architecture, same reason as given in the SCN for the D5 TDV6. Different motor, different engine, similar exhaust design = same diesel dilution. What's the betting the D5 has got the same problem with wear metals? If it was me, I'd also want to check.

    One person got a letter from JLR stating that there's no passive regen achieved during "normal driving" so active regeneration has to do everything. The reason is that the exhaust arrangement doesn't get the SCRF hot enough. That makes the post-injection work 2 to 3 times as hard to achieve the required burn rate. It is exactly what the SCN said it was, the recent development is that now "higher than expected" can be rationally explained.

    You saw it here first.
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 549
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    This is in the manual, which makes sense for turbodiesels (emphasis mine):

    "Vehicles operating under arduous conditions – frequent short trips, off-road use, trailer towing and frequent starts below freezing – will require more frequent servicing. Under these circumstances, the maintenance intervals should be cut in half."

    Typical "Your Mileage May Vary" statement, but turbodiesels are highway vehicles and need to be driven accordingly. They don't do well just on the school run day to day.
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    Not short journeys

    It has absolutely nothing to do with short journeys. JLR dealers are saying this because it provides a convenient smoke screen..
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 549
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    No, this is normal for turbodiesels. Believe what you wish.
  • neilk
    Member Since: 12 Aug 2016
    Location: Wokingham
    Posts: 137
    United Kingdom 
    2018 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Loire Blue

    Of course in general diesels are not efficient with short journeys and lower mileage but in my case I have had 2 cars previously (D4’sj) with the same basic engine and the exact same journey profile with a vastly different service interval. I understand the turbo configuration is different and each one has had increasing level of emissions compliance requirement and associated technology changes to adopt it. The fact remains that the late D4’s did not suffer the same issues and were also EU6 compliant and my wife’s Evoque which is a TurboDiesel meeting the same EU6 standards does not have the same issue with a much shorter journey profile.

    To claim such usage is “arduous conditions” to justify halfing of the service intervals is nonsense and a smokescreen as it makes the vehicle not fit for a purpose that has not changed. The reality is worse than halfing anyway. JLR themselves acknowledge the change in the marketing materials on this point and that the caveat has been added. DEF consumption for me is also off the chart, running three times faster than the mileage counter.

    So feel free to believe what you want, but for me this is a very real concern and issue if they cannot resolve it. This issue has nothing to do with the extreme end of start stop journeys as that is simple not my usage with a 30 mile commute on the motorway. Is that “arduous conditions” ?
  • PeterW
    Member Since: 07 Sep 2016
    Location: Norfolk
    Posts: 595
    England 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Corris Grey

    I’m thinking one of the site sponsors could make a killing offering a mobile “mid service” oil & filter change at a reasonable price!

    Peter
    HSE 3.0 V6 Diesel Corris Grey
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 549
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Yes, that could be considered "arduous" from an engine oil life perspective. The reason is the passive regeneration requires higher operating temps or longer drive cycles to complete. As pointed out elsewhere, the DPF can't get up to temperature for passive regeneration without some help, which then requires more active regen cycles. You may need to drive your vehicle at motorway speeds in a lower gear/higher RPM (say, 3,000-4,000) once every two weeks or so for 30-45 minutes to generate enough heat for forced passive regeneration to take the load off the active regen.

    The difference can be explained by the necessary level of compliance to pass a 22-minute laboratory test vs. remain compliant in most or all on-road operating conditions. What plate is your wife's Evoque? Older and newer versions may meet EU6 and US Tier 3 Bin 60 regulations under *test* conditions, but Volkswagens did too. The scrutiny is on now to ensure they meet regulations on-road as well. That may have required increased after-treatment and increased post-combustion injection to effect, with the necessary tradeoffs in engine oil life, to account for "average" operating conditions. That JLR didn't manage that expectation earlier is disappointing, and I understand your frustrations, but having just lived through the Volkswagen debacle and still keeping tabs on their "fix," I can't say it's surprising. In fact, I would be suspicious if nothing had changed, and weary of losing another enjoyable vehicle to overzealous regulators and lawsuits. Fiat-Chrysler is still under US Justice Department investigation and in a stop-sale in the US due to their so-called "EcoDiesel" having some hidden code that turns off or decreases emissions controls under certain conditions.

    Do not underestimate the effects that the widespread cheating has had on automakers. Tata Motors (and Ford, who is about to introduce the 3.0 Td6 as a PowerStroke branded offering on the best selling vehicle in the US) can ill afford the kinds of fines and payouts per unit that VAG had to make, and I doubt that JLR as one of the last UK domestic automakers wants to be tainted just as they're starting to pull business from VAG (namely Audi and Porsche) in the US. If they have to compensate owners with a few free oil changes, that's better to their bottom line than having to buy back or re-engineer and retrofit their vehicles.
  • neilk
    Member Since: 12 Aug 2016
    Location: Wokingham
    Posts: 137
    United Kingdom 
    2018 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Loire Blue

    The Evoque is a 16MY Ingenium Diesel, no major changes in the 17MY that we are aware off but of course this could have changed in time.

    I get the limitations and implications and agree it is the fact zero expectations were set for the early adopters, and the advice from the dealership was initially “ignore the service message and bring it in at 16k miles as planned it is a software issue”. If I hadn’t checked on here or persisted it could have been far worse. No axe to grind with you and I am certain you are correct, but they need a mitigation strategy. I see the technical bulletin has been pulled again pending further investigation so this is clearly worse than “we didn’t set the right expectations”.

    In my case in general it is at least 30 minutes a day at motorway speeds in the working week and typically at least one longer journey a week, but without forcing low gears. At weekends I may do the odd shorter local domestic trips but far from repeated short runs and mine came on at around 30% of the planned interval and 3 DEF fills (4 if you count the revisit when the cap was left off and topped up again), it will be regularly in the dealer who currently books 2 months out.

    I have the service plan and do not expect to pay extra, so that will be fun if the situation arises.
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 549
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    I apologize if I came across as a bit of an ass, not my intention. I'll definitely be paying close attention - so far I'm on track for the 8,000 mile interval my dealer said I should expect, and I believe I'll get barely 4,000-5,000 miles out of a tank of DEF. I didn't buy the service plan, but I'm not opposed to changing my own oil in between annual services and adding DEF. Both are easier on the Disco than my Touareg.

    Im with you on the inconvenience. If they offer freebies off-cycle then I may take them up on it, but that's a drive out of my way and a couple hours out of my day.
  • neilk
    Member Since: 12 Aug 2016
    Location: Wokingham
    Posts: 137
    United Kingdom 
    2018 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Loire Blue

    No worries and I appreciate the insight and didn't mean to be snippy either.

    Thanks.
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    Re: JLR Diesel Dilution

    VeryDisco5 wrote:
    Already onto the Oil Analysis for >3 months - DS has got Iron coming out in massive amounts, and it's linear so can't be "running in" problem..
    https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=6132

    Statistically there's a 95.3% correlation between vehicle mileage and Iron.
    https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtop...580#p77079

    It's caused by the Hardware and Architecture, same reason as given in the SCN for the D5 TDV6. Different motor, different engine, similar exhaust design = same diesel dilution. What's the betting the D5 has got the same problem with wear metals? If it was me, I'd also want to check.

    One person got a letter from JLR stating that there's no passive regen achieved during "normal driving" so active regeneration has to do everything. The reason is that the exhaust arrangement doesn't get the SCRF hot enough. That makes the post-injection work 2 to 3 times as hard to achieve the required burn rate. It is exactly what the SCN said it was, the recent development is that now "higher than expected" can be rationally explained.

    You saw it here first.


    https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=9522


  • Forum Permissions
  • You cannot create new threads in this forum
    You cannot reply to threads in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum
All times are GMT DISCO5.CO.UK © 2016 - 2020 Futuranet Ltd DISCO5.CO.UK RSS Feed - All Forums 
DISCO5.CO.UK is independent and not affiliated to Jaguar Land Rover.
Switch to the mobile site