Discovery 2017

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  • Tedworth
    Member Since: 23 Sep 2017
    Location: East Anglia
    Posts: 12
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Carpathian Grey

    New Discovery - service required after only 350 miles!

    Having kept track of the forums I was expecting some sort of issue and sadly it came after only 350 miles when the LR Remote App informed me the car needs a service!

    The warning light in the car itself didn’t come on until I’d driven another 100 miles.

    Will call local LR today - I was informed when I took delivery of the car only a few days ago that there were no outstanding updates required so this must be an unresolved issue.

    Otherwise, the car is fantastic.
    23rd Sep 2017 6:46 am
  • Russell
    Member Since: 26 Jun 2016
    Location: Lydd
    Posts: 1102
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 First Edition Namib Orange

    Mine came up first time at similar miles and has now been up two more times in 6000 miles goes in again Tuesday Sad
    Namib Orange 1st Edition with black roof and wheels.
    Privacy, tow bar, drive pack, surround camera, heated front & rear seats, auto dim door mirrors, side steps, remote Pro, RSE, arm rest fridge dash cam front and rear.
    23rd Sep 2017 7:31 am
  • jimbg
    Member Since: 23 Jun 2016
    Location: Devon
    Posts: 1472
    United Kingdom 

    Mine did the same after I updated the app!

    It was reading around 4000 to go in the car and then without driving it , the distance dropped to 1250?
    23rd Sep 2017 7:48 am
  • J77
    Member Since: 07 Jun 2016
    Location: Fife
    Posts: 1008
    Scotland 

    Mines was doing this until today, nothing on the app now and oil service has changed from 1700 miles to 4000 miles, still putting it well short of the 16000 miles service interval.
    18MY Velar R-Dynamic SE D240 Fuji White
    24th Sep 2017 2:14 pm
  • Disco John
    Member Since: 13 Aug 2017
    Location: Richmond, W London
    Posts: 28
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Farallon Black

    Tedworth, do you have a 2.0l or 3.0L engine, please?
    D5, 3.0L HSE Farallon Black, Cancelled due to oil dilution issues
    24th Oct 2017 8:14 am
  • jimbg
    Member Since: 23 Jun 2016
    Location: Devon
    Posts: 1472
    United Kingdom 

    Hover over his car icon and it tells you Thumbs Up
    24th Oct 2017 8:43 am
  • Tedworth
    Member Since: 23 Sep 2017
    Location: East Anglia
    Posts: 12
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Carpathian Grey

    Yes, it's the 3.0L.

    The service light is only showing on the app so I have ignored it as per the advice from my local LR dealer.

    The recent App update didn't result in the icon being removed so I guess it's an unresolved software issue .
    24th Oct 2017 9:05 am
  • Disco John
    Member Since: 13 Aug 2017
    Location: Richmond, W London
    Posts: 28
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Farallon Black

    (thanks Jimbg)
    So, from the evidence of this forum it seems that the fuel in oil dilution problem only effects the 3.0l diesel engine in the D5, which also seems to have this problem in the FFRR and RRS (EU6), but not in the D4, even when it was EU6 spec.
    The 2.0l Ingenium engine seems not to have this problem in the D5, but does in the DS and RR Evoque models.
    My guess is that this is a problem, to a greater or lesser extent, for all EU6 diesels that use post ignition injection of diesel to promote DPF regeneration, but because of the particular configuration of the DPF and the design of the EGR systems, some DPF's run much cooler and therefore need more help with the regeneration, leading to the fact that the same engine can give problems in one configuration but not another.
    This is not OK, the diesel dilution not only means early oil changes but also has the potential to affect the long term performance of the engine due to less effective lubrication and excessive 'washing' of the cylinder walls by un-combusted diesel.
    LR Customer service have promised me a clear statement on this situation but nothing seems to have emerged over the 4 weeks that I have been asking.
    I am beginning to wish I had ordered a petrol Rolling Eyes
    D5, 3.0L HSE Farallon Black, Cancelled due to oil dilution issues
    24th Oct 2017 3:47 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    SCRF

    John, on the DS forum they are working on the theory that "hardware and architecture" in the SCN refers to the fact that there is simply too much pipework between the hot outlet from the turbo and the inlet to the SCRF (which houses the DPF) for passive regeneration to work at all. This then causes active regeneration to kick in more frequently and when it does start up it encounters similar problems to do with temperature management: firstly the warm up period is longer because the oxidation catalyst has to provide the extra heat, then Active regen has to run longer to burn off all the HCPM. You can see it quite clearly in this video, the first canister is the diesel oxidation catalyst and this is where the exothermic event occurs to get the SCRF hot enough to incinerate the soot.

    It might be worthwhile trying to get a parts diagram or something similar for the D5 which shows the architecture of the exhaust components.to see if this could be the same issue on the Discovery. One issue (and the video shows it really well) is that the DEF injector is between the DOC and the SCRF and the cooling effect of the injected AbBLue isn't helping things. If this is the root of the problem, it's probably not going to be fixed with software. The situation on the XE/XF is different altogether because the DPF is right up behind the exhaust manifold and this makes sure that passive regen pulls its weight properly. As you already know the diesel dilution comes from the post injection associated with active regen activity and this is what is most likely causing the early service requests.
    3rd Nov 2017 1:07 am
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 768
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    I just re-posted a link to a technical document on the 3.0L Td6 engine hosted by @sportcoupe - here: https://disco5.co.uk/forum/post963.html#963

    I found this in that document:

    "The function of Low Pressure (LP) Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) is to re-circulate the exhaust gases after Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) to further improve ability to meet the emission level as well as reducing the CO2 thereby improving the fuel economy. It also improves engine transient performance due to more exhaust energy being diverted to the turbocharger." Given this setup, if excess fuel is being injected in the DPF, it could be making its way into the oil through the variable-vane turbocharger, but tolerances on a new vehicle should be tight enough that this would be virtually insignificant. Perhaps in the combustion chamber, but at that point it should be burning with the injected fuel.

    Unfortunately this document doesn't show the catalytic reduction chamber, but I assume it's just downstream of the DPF as with most modern setups. Hopefully the LP EGR is between the DPF and the catalyst, otherwise there could be the possibility of AdBlue contamination in the engine oil from excess injection there...AdBlue being recirculated back through the turbo and into the combustion chamber. Still, the heat in the combustion chamber should nuke that too.
    3rd Nov 2017 1:06 pm
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 768
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Re: SCRF

    VeryDisco5 wrote:
    One issue (and the video shows it really well) is that the DEF injector is between the DOC and the SCRF and the cooling effect of the injected AbBLue isn't helping things. If this is the root of the problem, it's probably not going to be fixed with software. The situation on the XE/XF is different altogether because the DPF is right up behind the exhaust manifold and this makes sure that passive regen pulls its weight properly. As you already know the diesel dilution comes from the post injection associated with active regen activity and this is what is most likely causing the early service requests.


    Ah, just re-read this.

    The EU6 and US Tier 3 Bin 60 regulations on NOx emissions are very aggressive. This setup cools the intake charge which results in lower NOx production to meet regulations...this is how VW got in so much trouble here. They undersized the system to meet only what was necessary to pass the 22-minute test, in order to make $500 more per vehicle, and so they wouldn't have to pay for DPF and SCR replacements within their warranty period due to higher cycling of the system.

    So the implication is that a properly functioning diesel emissions system will either need a very, very robust (and expensive) DPF, or we must accept some other limitation to meet pollution controls legally during on-road operation.
    3rd Nov 2017 1:15 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    Diesel Dilution

    It is actually much simpler than all of the above, plain old Route 1, in fact. There are plenty of resources on the net describing how diesel gets into the sump via a process called "post injection", so here's a shortened version. It's worth reading this while looking at the diagram in the excellent TDV6 manual above.

    The passive regeneration process (of the DPF) is severely inhibited if the SCR/DPF canister isn't close enough to the turbo outlet, because it needs a min temp of 500 degrees to work. In turn this puts more reliance on active regeneration which is a process using post injection of diesel into the cylinders. Active regeneration has 2 phases. The first phase is used in association with retarded ignition to heat up the pipework dowstream of the oxidation catalyst so that the DPF reaches a temperature of 1100 degrees which is hot enough to turn all the soot to CO2 + a small ash residue. Once the requisite temperature has been reached the DPF can be "emptied" in 15 to 20 minutes by Active Regeneration.

    The post injection is the bad guy. The piston passes BDC and at some point during the exhaust stroke the injector makes a small injection of diesel which atomises and is swept into the exhaust where it is carried as a cloud of unburnt fuel into the oxidation catalyst. Here, an exothermic chemical reaction occurs (it burns) and the heat produced is carried downstream to the SCR/DPF to do its stuff on the soot.

    Back in the cylinder some of the atomised diesel from the post injection got left behind and this residue interacts with the protective oil film before being scraped off on the induction stroke down into the oil sump. Using a simple algorithm, a calculation is made on the molecular mass of that proportion of diesel that was injected "post combustion" and divided by the mass of oil in the system to derive a percentage. When that percentage reaches some value, the car asks for its oil to be changed. It is a crude means of raising the exhaust temp and it is associated with premature engine wear in the eyes of some engineers. For that reason on some installations the fuel is input directly into the exhaust away from the engine, using a dedicated injection port, thus avoiding both of these negative effects. A thorough google search of these terms will ink in any gaps for those who want to understand this in more detail. In the UK, the honestjohn website has just put to JLR the fact that early servicing is being caused by inactive passive regeneration which is making active regeneration work overtime. Their reply isn't exactly what you would call convincing....
    4th Nov 2017 8:14 am
  • B McP
    Member Since: 29 Sep 2017
    Location: Banchory
    Posts: 62
    Scotland 
    2020 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Corris Grey

    Yesterday I got a message advising service due in 1800 miles, today I get the message service due 0 miles, car has only done 3350 miles and I did not travel 1800 miles in one day. Due to go in the local LR garage on Wednesday - hope they can sort out the software again.
    4th Nov 2017 1:01 pm
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 768
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Re: Diesel Dilution

    VeryDisco5 wrote:
    In the UK, the honestjohn website has just put to JLR the fact that early servicing is being caused by inactive passive regeneration which is making active regeneration work overtime. Their reply isn't exactly what you would call convincing....


    Interesting, thanks for the great description.

    Do you have a link? Cursory search through the honestjohn site didn't reveal anything for me...

    All engineering decisions have pluses and minuses. The 3.0L Td6 engine isn't actually made by JLR, it's made by Ford-Pugeot, and I'm willing to bet the tradeoffs they made that result in early servicing under certain driving conditions are to avoid a potentially much more expensive (for JLR and the Lion JV) consequence of not meeting NOx and particulate emissions regulations, especially in the US where JLR is pushing diesels in the absence of marques like BMW and MB who have (mostly) withdrawn diesels from the market here along with VAG.

    There's no free lunch, sadly. Will have to see how the Ingenium inline-six works out. It sounds like it will be pretty sweet from a performance perspective.
    4th Nov 2017 10:20 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/land...2015-l550/

    Check the "Good and Bad" section.
    5th Nov 2017 9:22 am
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