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- Member Since: 08 Jan 2019
- Location: Northamptonshire
- Posts: 522
lrgcoffee wrote:As much as it me off, I can look past the fact that my dealer service department is an incompetent bunch that I'm mandated to pay extortion-level oil change service fees to as long as I'm under warranty.
What I can't abide is not being able to adjust my service schedule based on vehicle needs.
If I follow the service reminders from the car, I'll be changing my oil 2-3x per year. I hear there's a software update that modifies the service due calculation algorithm to make the reminder frequency more realistic. That update does not show up on my recalls/service actions, so my dealer won't touch it. Their response is that I can a) follow my conscience and pay for the oil change every time the light goes off or b) ignore the light and have them reset it at the peril of the life of my car. Those are options.
If I had my own way to monitor regens and oil dilution, this would help greatly. I'm going to start taking oil samples and having them tested every 6 months. This will give me a better insight. Maybe it will give me the peace-of-mind needed.
What will not ease up is my outrage over the fact that JLR sells us these cars, but provides zero support for its customers who want to do what is necessary to maximize the life of their cars.
The update for a 2017, should be N241 and for mine was listed as a campaign on Topix.
And if anyone would like the email addresses for JLR UK Head office:
Assistant to CEO of JLR is firstname.lastname@example.org
Corporate Executive Support - Ashleight Kelly - email@example.com
Executive office - UKEO@jaguarlandrover.com
2017 HSE Td6 with Capability plus pack, wade sensing, parking heater, armest fridge, head up display and surround cameras, 4 zone climate, black pack, privacy glass, adaptive headlamps, intelligent seat fold, deployable tow bar, side steps.
- Member Since: 09 May 2018
- Location: Sacramento
- Posts: 8
Letter to sales staffSome time in 2018 the attached letter was sent to sales staff outlining the severity of DPF problems referred to in JLRP00100 in terms of the different floor pans. The Discovery is better off than the D8 cars for 2 reasons.
1. The DPF is close coupled to the DOC, actually its in the same canister.
2. It is a CSF which oxidises soot far better than the SCRF device used on the D8s.
That's why it is in the "medium" risk category while the Evoque/E-Pace/DS are all "high".
Both this document and JLRP00100 were distributed worldwide. Anyone who denies that JLR knows about a systemic issue with the EU6b diesels is lying, incompetent or both. The good news for the D5 is that the diesel estimation algorithm did tend to over-estimate the FIO. Anyone in the UK still concerned about the state of their oil should spend £30 and get a Millers Oils lab test. This will show how reliable the service indicator really is.
JLR letter to sales staff.
CSF vs SCRF. Scientific paper Johnson Matthey 2016.
Discovery 5 DOC-CSF (labelled "DPF")
Thanks for posting that. A couple things:
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 549
1. The letter is sourced from another forum without a link. The letter also is not dated nor does it have a reference number that could be provided to JLR CRC. I'd like to see the original letter with a date and some kind of reference number.
2. If JLRP00100 or whatever it was, *was* issued in North America, it was rescinded before August 2017. I provided a copy to my dealer at my second oil change (early 2018), they searched for it, showed me the search screen with all open notices for my vehicle, and it was not present. They searched on RRS Td6 for MY17 and MY18 and Range Rovers for the same years, showed me the search screens - nothing. This is when they stated that JLR controls what service departments see in terms of TSBs or recalls - and if it's not in their system, they have to open any customer problem as an issue the same as anything else, go through their service manuals, and if they can't isolate or resolve, they can elevate it. In my case, additional tests were run and the issue closed as nothing wrong/normal operation. There is literally nothing the dealer can do beyond that unless you want to attempt to exercise any lemon laws that may apply in your area. Engage with CRC if you want relief - the squeaky wheel sometimes gets the grease.
3. The letter seems to indicate that some software change is being implemented that will extend the limit from 7% to 10%. Would expect that to come with a service campaign or TSB reference as well as an effective date or range. None listed. N241 seems to have helped a little for NAS engines that didn't get / weren't eligible for N222. Note, this does not mention whether the engines referred to in the letter were Td6s or the Ingenium 4's. All vehicles on that list (maybe except for the FFRR?) come with the Ingenium 4cyl turbodiesels in Europe and many came with the Td6 engine until MY19; only the XE, XF, and F-Pace came with the Ingenium 4cyls in the US (The RRS, RR, and Discovery only come with the Td6), it's not clear that this letter applies to Td6 architectures.
4. In the diagram, the DPF is connected directly to the downpipe - there is plenty of heat available. There is a crossover pipe from one bank of cylinders, but in the Discovery it is crammed between the block and the firewall. I doubt enough heat is lost from that crossover to seriously affect passive regeneration. In any case, my service interval drops close to 1:1 in daily driving, but it plummets in highway driving at speed and in high-load situations - which is the *polar opposite* of what should happen. This leads me to believe the service interval counter can be ignored until such time as independent oil testing seems to indicate it can't be, and per #5 below, that should be a long time.
5. Bottom line, testing the oil is the single best indicator of oil quality, and many have tested and found there is no dilution occurring. The vehicle only estimates quality, it does not measure it. I feel like they engineered the estimation algorithm perhaps to be conservative for a main-life or older engine that has already experienced some wear - in that case, I would expect more fuel to enter the crankcase when it's older than in early life. That said, a motor oil with better (i.e., more accurate) viscosity and higher TBN will provide some resilience against dilution and get you closer to the promised service interval. The Castrol Edge Pro that JLR uses is crap, which is unusual for Castrol. I'll switch to Mobil 1 ESP when I'm out of warranty, and then I'll change on mileage vs. when the vehicle thinks I have to. This time I changed at the 10,000 mile mark.
- Member Since: 09 May 2018
- Location: Sacramento
- Posts: 8
D7u is OK in the main on dilutionThe comprehensive document linked below, though not intended to be about the D7u V6 diesel, nevertheless provides some decent clues as to why true dilution (as opposed to merely "estimated" dilution) and associated problems seen on the D8 cars shouldn't overly concern us..
1. The medium-coupled D7U V6 architecture has the oxidation catalyst and DPF in the same canister.
2. The system uses a conventional DPF with a catalysed soot filter that will easily perform passive regeneration by nitrogen dioxide across a range of temperatures from 200 to 450 deg C.
3. The SCR process is separate and therefore active regeneration is uninhibited by the presence of NH3 and simultaneous reduction reactions.
4. Passive regeneration occurs normally and active regenerations complete quickly.
As JLR has said, this EU6-compliant (Tier 2-Bin 5) system carries only a medium risk of diesel dilution and other DPF problems, except in the worst cases where journeys really are too short and/or driven at very low power outputs.
It's not in this guide but I found it useful to compare the D8 layout with the D7u TDV6 exhaust layout below.
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