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Darras

Member Since: 16 May 2020

Location: Newcastle

Posts: 749

Electric Cars

Nothing new apart from the prediction that electric cars will be upon us in the near future. Jaguar will only make electric cars from 2025. It’s only 4 years away. When will the same apply to LRs? I certainly wouldn’t buy a new car at the moment. It’s likely to be obsolete before too long.

From the BBC web site.
Post #32454 1st Jun 2021 6:36 am
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FastLaneJB

Member Since: 29 May 2021

Location: Bedfordshire

Posts: 189

Considering most people don't "buy" new cars but lease / PCP them then I don't see the issue, In 4 years time they'll have handed their ICE car back.

I have been pondering this a lot though to be honest as I am due to change my car at the latest by March next year. I had originally decided I wanted a Model S Plaid+ however seems they won't be available in the UK until end of 2022 now and knowing Elon they'll have a few more slippages in that date still.

I've driven a Model 3 and it's a lovely car, you've no road tax to pay, no servicing and very cheap running costs at the moment. On the other hand charging infrastructure is still quite bad overall though improving nicely. I don't think I'd feel happy having a non Telsa electric car simply because Tesla is well ahead of the game with their super chargers plus you can use the rest.

Part of me is saying would I kick myself in the future for not having one last ICE vehicle before they go. I do quite fancy trying an SUV as I think considering how the world's changed a bit from the virus travelling around the UK or even driving over to the rest of Europe might be something I do more than I used to with the family. At some point need to do the NC500 up in Scotland and I'd hazard a guess that's not possible really or easily with an electric car.

SUV's currently make awful electric cars for the same reason they get low fuel economy, they just aren't effecient shapes to get good range and battery technology is still in it's early days. When you can fill up in minutes it's merely a cost issue though they have large tanks so can still do 500+ miles I'd think on a long run. If your hitting 150 miles and then having to have a 40 minute charge or having to go out of your way a bit to find a charger that's not ideal.

Still not fully decided on this to be honest. I figure an ICE car is still fine, they might not sell them for much longer but it'll take a long time after that for the ones on the road to vanish. No city in the UK is banning a Euro 6 grade diesel so you won't be restricted on where you can go at the moment.

Similar I'd not want to own a current electric car but rather lease / PCP that. Solid state batteries will come in the not too distant future, faster charging, longer ranges, etc, etc. They are in their early days and have a lot more improvements to come. ICE is 100+ year old tech, they still improve it though I suspect not much anymore but the pace of change is slow now.

Decisions, decisions. Ultimately it'll probably come down to I'd like to have a 7 seat SUV more than an Electric car and the XC90 which is the only PHEV with 7 seats I think doesn't do it for me. I'd have a P400e Disco 5 if they did one but there's no where to put the battery I imagine.
Post #32457 1st Jun 2021 11:01 am
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Darras

Member Since: 16 May 2020

Location: Newcastle

Posts: 749

On reflection, I did my usual and assumed most people just bought their cars with cash.

As for doing the NC500, yes, you’d do it in an electric car, no problem. Whether you should or not is another matter. It’s mobbed, a racetrack by another name. It’s all Camper Vans, Motorcyclists, Caravans and those in sport cars, who try to do it all in a day.
Post #32458 1st Jun 2021 12:16 pm
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FastLaneJB

Member Since: 29 May 2021

Location: Bedfordshire

Posts: 189

Not even sure most pay cash second hand these days but not for a new car. Still regardless of how you pay we are at a cross roads that I don't think you can assume you could buy an ICE and run it into the ground. You might be forced to change it before it naturally expires.

Similar I can imagine if you buy an electric car now, they could depreciate quite quickly when new tech comes along were they maybe are longer range, lighter, charge faster, etc.

Neither feels like a long term plan at the moment though of course we will all be going electric sooner or later. Just saying it's in the early days for those types of cars, they'll improve a lot over the next 10 years.

Yes had a friend that took his BMW M2 along with some other friends in sporty cars up around the NC500. Not sure what the roads are like to take up an aircraft carrier of a car like my M760Li. It's 5.2 metres long and needs a whole postcode to park it in, the Disco 5 is a tiny car in comparison
Post #32459 1st Jun 2021 12:24 pm
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DieselRanger

Member Since: 12 Oct 2017

Location: God's Country, Colorado

Posts: 754

Just read an article about LR and the next Discovery - will be on a different platform than the current Disco/Defender. The Defender will continue on as MHEV, but Discovery will be EV and PHEV only, with 4-cyl engines only if ICE is selected.

Kind of sad - you can't strap extra batteries on the roof to extend your range another 100 miles, and solar panels would take weeks to recharge a battery while overlanding. Rivian is installing charging stations at popular trailheads, and I really respect what they did with Ewan MacGregor's latest expedition among other recent feats, but we are a long way from self-sufficiency in the backcountry with an EV.

https://www.motor1.com/news/510455/land-ro...discovery/
Post #32465 1st Jun 2021 9:06 pm
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eelpout

Member Since: 01 Jun 2017

Location: Don't call it "Cali"

Posts: 295

Quote:
https://www.motor1.com/news/510455/land-ro...discovery/

thanks for the link. (and the comments strike me as funny, some people just can't get over the rear door... )

what I think is going to happen is they'll drop the regular Discovery and just go with the Disco Sport, I see THAT model being BEV only.

I honestly wonder though, of these people flocking to the Defender, who are NEW to LR, if they even bother to look at the D5, because if they did, they might select it instead. The new Defender just seems downgraded and plasticy to me in the interior (even though it often costs more when spec'd the same).
Post #32467 1st Jun 2021 9:16 pm
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FastLaneJB

Member Since: 29 May 2021

Location: Bedfordshire

Posts: 189

DieselRanger wrote:
Just read an article about LR and the next Discovery - will be on a different platform than the current Disco/Defender. The Defender will continue on as MHEV, but Discovery will be EV and PHEV only, with 4-cyl engines only if ICE is selected.

Kind of sad - you can't strap extra batteries on the roof to extend your range another 100 miles, and solar panels would take weeks to recharge a battery while overlanding. Rivian is installing charging stations at popular trailheads, and I really respect what they did with Ewan MacGregor's latest expedition among other recent feats, but we are a long way from self-sufficiency in the backcountry with an EV.

https://www.motor1.com/news/510455/land-ro...discovery/

It has to go this way. Euro 7 emission rules come in around 2025 which for a vehicle like the Discovery will probably make it impossible for them to sell an ICE only model. At least it’s not a BEV only, you’ve an option for a PHEV also which means you should be OK off-road or away from civilisation. A lot of makes seem to drop the size of the fuel tank on their PHEV’s but not Land Rover so could have a good mixture of battery range plus fuel based distance.

I’d not write it off until we see it and it’s still a ways off. At least when it comes to European brands, they’ll all be going this way I imagine.
Post #32468 1st Jun 2021 10:21 pm
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Equilibrium

Member Since: 26 Feb 2019

Location: Bristol

Posts: 754

I too wouldn’t worry about what to buy right now, there will remain a secondhand ICE market for the lifetime of anything being registered at the moment.

Think the BBC article has it about right, that we are now in the exponential growth phase of electric adoption. I would have bought a PHEV or BEV when I bought the Discovery, there just wasn’t anything out there that suited me enough.

From my sole EV driving experience, a Model X in 2018, I’ve got zero concerns about how these things drive or how interesting they are. That was a fun car for a SUV, outhandled my 440i GC in many circumstances (this isn’t an amazing complement, the 4-series F3x chassis is dire in some ways) and engaged the senses thoroughly as the motors wound up. I didn’t buy a Model X as the interior is awful for the money, and that part of the car is amongst the most important criteria for me. But if I could swap the Discovery drivetrain for the Model X drivetrain, I would do so in a heartbeat.

Rivian is the intriguing one for me, I have that down as a likely replacement for the D5. Other than that, some great options are emerging in smaller cars - the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and the Kia EV6 both look brilliant for the money. In much smaller cars, both the Honda E and Peugeot e208 have far more appeal than their ICE cousins.

Stateside, the F150 Lightning looks fantastic too.

The market really is becoming a fascinating place IMHO and is all the better for the emergence of electric.

Drives: 2020 MY20 HSE Luxury SDV6 in Eiger Grey/Glacier
Departed: 2019 MY20 HSE Luxury SDV6 in Carpathian Grey/Glacier, 440i, 320d, Toyotas, Mondeo, Citroen BX amongst others
Post #32475 2nd Jun 2021 8:15 am
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FastLaneJB

Member Since: 29 May 2021

Location: Bedfordshire

Posts: 189

I agree, I think there's some great electric cars either out or just about to arrive. If you can charge at home and don't need public chargers too much it can work very well.

I'd be a bit wary of having to use public chargers too much just yet personally. As an example the nearest supermarket has a bank of electric chargers, that's good. However they are the closest spots to the store, I guess to avoid having to run longer electric cables to the back of the carpark. You'll never get in them because they are just always full of ICE cars parked in them.

Then you see videos or read about broken chargers, not enough that you have to queue and all sorts. Put's me off somewhat though I do fall into the category I could home charge most of the time.

My thinking on this is Disco 5 for myself and the family for trips, maybe a Telsa Model 3 for the wife at some point for her shorter journey's plus anytime I feel like having a blast in it. She won't drive something the size of a Disco 5 for instance.
Post #32480 2nd Jun 2021 11:45 am
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DieselRanger

Member Since: 12 Oct 2017

Location: God's Country, Colorado

Posts: 754

I'll be keeping my D5 Td6 for a long time - no plans to bring the new D300 MHEV stateside, which is a shame, as the mid-sized (for US markets) turbodiesel is just about the best powerplant for a mid-large sized all-around capable SUV, and the MHEV setup should significantly improve around-town driving dynamics. Unfortunately, Volkswagen, FCA, and Mercedes have seen to it that we can't have nice things.

I don't think LR will discontinue the Discovery. Everything they've said is that Defender, Discovery, and Range Rover are the core LR models. If anything the Discovery Sport goes away, as that overlaps too much with other offerings from Jaguar and Range Rover, and it sells at a fraction of the rate the RRS does.

Defender = "Capability and Durability"
Discovery = "Capability and Versatility"
Range Rover = "Capability and Luxury"

We'll be adding an EV as our second car early next year. I really like Polestar, but the Aesthetics Committee has to approve that one. I'll watch Rivian closely, but I feel we're a good decade off from sufficient battery technology and charging infrastructure for me to want to have one as our family sherpa for adventures in the American West.
Post #32490 2nd Jun 2021 7:52 pm
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Equilibrium

Member Since: 26 Feb 2019

Location: Bristol

Posts: 754

Diesel ranger, I guess that might be a US market view on the Disco Sport, where it’s a bit small. Over here, it is way more common than the real Discovery. I also seem to recall reading that the DS was globally the biggest seller in the entire range.

Drives: 2020 MY20 HSE Luxury SDV6 in Eiger Grey/Glacier
Departed: 2019 MY20 HSE Luxury SDV6 in Carpathian Grey/Glacier, 440i, 320d, Toyotas, Mondeo, Citroen BX amongst others
Post #32491 2nd Jun 2021 7:58 pm
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Equilibrium

Member Since: 26 Feb 2019

Location: Bristol

Posts: 754

Fastlane, think you are right there.

I’d be completely comfortable with home charging 99.9% of the time.

It’s funny that I still think about EV range when considering one, as in five years my longest single day’s drive is 170 miles. On the other hand, I wouldn’t want to be looking for a charger with the wife and two kids on board, not even one day in a thousand

When I did look the model X I had nagging doubts over the range as I was at Heathrow once a month or more back then. 99 miles each way, which was marginal on one charge. There were super chargers at my regular night-before-the-flight hotel, but I still didn’t relish the idea of “having to” charge en route on the trips where I didn’t use the hotel. Luckily the interior quality saved me thinking too much about it.

Drives: 2020 MY20 HSE Luxury SDV6 in Eiger Grey/Glacier
Departed: 2019 MY20 HSE Luxury SDV6 in Carpathian Grey/Glacier, 440i, 320d, Toyotas, Mondeo, Citroen BX amongst others
Post #32492 2nd Jun 2021 8:08 pm
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FastLaneJB

Member Since: 29 May 2021

Location: Bedfordshire

Posts: 189
It's like range on ICE cars though, you never get what the manufacturer quotes only I think electric cars are even worse. You've the following issues:
Not to say ICE's don't have some of these issues but you fill them up quickly so mostly people only care about mpg because of the cost of fuel, not because it takes them an hour each time to fill up.

I test drove a Tesla Model S P100D back when I was looking at my current car but the M760Li was an easy choice. Both about the same money but I've got heated / cooled / massage / electrically operated seats front and back, better air suspension, much nicer matterials, laser headlights, night vision, ambient lighting, TV's in the back and I could go on. Also after the initial made push of the P100D and once your going my butt dyno tells me the V12 in the BMW is just as quick. It was a no brainer really.

This time no Model S or X available, only the 3. It's not on the same levels as something like a Disco / M760Li type cars as your still giving up a lot of features you're used to. It is at least a lot cheaper though so that's more acceptable. There's other electric cars but none that really jump out at me and they don't have the advantage of the Supercharger network.

I mean they do make it tempting financially in a way, no road tax, much cheaper cost to fill up, if you can get on them there's even free charging spots in places. For the masses if they can afford an electric car it probably does make a lot of sense IF they have off road charging at home.

When I'm filling up a V12 currently, even a Diesel Disco would be a large cost saving but that's not my goal. Hence I want something nice, something that resonates with me. Never having an SUV I do kind of fancy trying one and I think the Discovery 5 is the best overall package at the moment. I'm aware I could get a bit more luxury in a Range Rover but I don't think it's that much more to justify it and I do fancy having 7 seats available. I'll rarely use them but I do have cases that would save taking two cars instead and then you also get to chat with everyone.
Post #32503 3rd Jun 2021 10:05 am
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DieselRanger

Member Since: 12 Oct 2017

Location: God's Country, Colorado

Posts: 754

Equilibrium wrote:
Diesel ranger, I guess that might be a US market view on the Disco Sport, where it’s a bit small. Over here, it is way more common than the real Discovery. I also seem to recall reading that the DS was globally the biggest seller in the entire range.

Well, the US is Land Rover's biggest single market by revenue, but here are some numbers - note the steep decline in DS sales in Europe and China since 2017 (Europe in this dataset includes the UK, sorry):

In the top two graphs, colors are the same:
Green = Defender
Blue = Discovery
Gold = Range Rover Sport
Red = Discovery Sport

The Evoque was actually the best selling Land Rover model until DS came along (both thanks to China). but through the end of 2019, both models' sales converged with the RRS. If you look at the global RRS, Discovery, and Range Rover, the sales are more or less constant since 2014, hence LR stating they are core brand identity models. But the story is clear in the last graph - you can see clear cannibalization of sales across the model lines between Evoque, DS, Velar, and probably more if you added in E-Pace and F-Pace. Defender is now cannibalizing sales from all of them.
Post #32507 3rd Jun 2021 4:31 pm
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DieselRanger

Member Since: 12 Oct 2017

Location: God's Country, Colorado

Posts: 754

FastLaneJB wrote:

Not to say ICE's don't have some of these issues but you fill them up quickly so mostly people only care about mpg because of the cost of fuel, not because it takes them an hour each time to fill up.

I think this is one of the biggest issues. In the US a new survey shows that 25% of EV buyers go back to ICE vehicles because of the inconvenience - they can't charge at home if they live in urban areas (apartments or condominiums), and most don't yet have access to free charging or even paid charging at work. We will install a home charger when we get an EV, but it's going to take some hard lessons in range anxiety to change our behavior to think about plugging in at night vs. stopping to top up the tank on the way somewhere. And our Disco will remain the road trip car for the foreseeable future.

FastLaneJB wrote:
I test drove a Tesla Model S P100D back when I was looking at my current car but the M760Li was an easy choice.

I can't get past the horrendous build quality I've seen in every Tesla I've been in, or seen parked. And the toxic fan culture of Tesla owners turns me off. I don't want to be associated with that. Not to mention, they'll sell you "options" that don't exist, with a promise an upgrade will come later, only never to arrive while your depreciating asset slowly rots.
Post #32508 3rd Jun 2021 4:46 pm
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Electric Cars

Quote:

DieselRanger wrote:

Equilibrium wrote:

FastLaneJB wrote:

FastLaneJB wrote: