- harrythespider
- Member Since: 19 Jul 2018
- Location: cumbria
- Posts: 417
Induction heating can reach 3000 degrees C and can run continously for extended periods i.e months if required. Its all a matter of specification and cost. Perhaps a FBH could be the answer, exhaust gas temperature would be in excess of 1500 deg so could possibly be used to maintain the original exhaust gas temperature to enable regeneration, though 'plumbing it into the exhaust system would be interesting, almost like heat exchanger?
I'm not sure what if anything reset wise is required when carrying out an oil and filter change, but you can bet that if the owner rather than the dealer carries one out whilst under warranty, it would be an excuse for JLR to void the warranty, therefor stealer prices for increased frequency of oil changes. I'll leave it to you to see some of the prices stealers have charged, I'm sure someone posted that they had been charged over £300!!!!!! 10 of them and your at £3000.
As an aside, there's been no mention of being able to carry out a manual regeneration whilst the vehicle is stationary, other vehicles are able to do this,
- andynoiseboy
- Member Since: 26 Aug 2018
- Location: West Yorkshire
- Posts: 36
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The trouble with electrical heating, induction or otherwise, is the increased power requirements. Adding such a current load would likely stress the electrical system to a point where other reliability issues will arise. Then there's retrofitting the required hardware - all very expensive.
I've read reports of 'complimentary' oil changes for some of the many disco sport and evoque owners which have a similar DPF related problem but I don't think that is official JLR policy.
No one knows how this will pan out, I'm just speculating that the simplest solution would be chosen, and that would be to change the oil/filter more frequently.
Owners may need to become more vocal to ensure that they are not expected to bear the cost, but let's see how JLR respond.
- AndrewS
- Member Since: 28 Apr 2016
- Location: Pembridge
- Posts: 410
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Right I'm only asking because my car has NOT had an issue!!!!
My dealer Shukers Ludlow has told me none of their cars have had a real actual oil dilution problem. They have had cars in where the service indicator has indicated that a service is required sooner than expected and this happens to most of the diesel engine range some some more than others. There has been a software update to fix the early service indicator showing however this has not been that successful.
Is there a real actual oil dilution issue? Or is it the 'electronics', 'sensors' 'software' or 'engine management problem' within the vehicles.
Has anyone had an engine fail due to oil dilution?
I agree its wrong that Land Rover are saying that they will not change the oil FOC when the early warning pops up, but then again does it need changing?
I also agree that saying you have to change your driving style is a cop out.
This begs the question should those people that are experiencing problems with modern emission controls in DERV vehicles have bought a diesel engined vehicle? Should they have gone for petrol?
- Labbix
- Member Since: 05 Mar 2018
- Location: Tanzania
- Posts: 955
I have multiple diesels here from different brands, not had a problem with the regeneration ever with the other cars ( done over 40000 km on them each), but with the D5 I’m only at 3500km. I have the same driving style in all my cars and am very curious to see if the D5 will show errors in the near future. But the km to the next service interval drop quickly (have posted photos earlier) and the D5 is mostly doing highway until now, while other cars or mixed use. Will keep you posted if the D5 will go in for an oil change, needed or not, I have no idea at the moment, like most of us I suppose.
- andynoiseboy
- Member Since: 26 Aug 2018
- Location: West Yorkshire
- Posts: 36
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It could well be software error. There is no oil analysis device in the engine so an algorithm calculates/estimates the fuel-in-oil percentage based on running time, temperatures, DPF regeneration, RPM, acceleration, economy etc. etc. An error in the maths and it could be wildly inaccurate and throw service warnings too early.
All speculation - without oil analysis on each occasion, it can't be verified.
It's important to note that fuel-in-oil dilution is normal in virtually every engine to some extent, including in pertol engines. The issue here is that it is potentially increased significantly by the in-cylinder post injection method of active DPF regeneration. Additional fuel is injected with the intention of it burning in the exhaust gases, thus raising its temperature. This increases the chance of minute amounts passing the cylinder rings and into the crankcase. Bear in mind that this happens several times per second in every cylinder over several minutes on each DPF regeneration cycle. This can add up.
JLR have published in their own 'service compliance notification' that some models are affected by early oil dilution detection. Some, not all models. The reason for that appears to be 'exhaust architecture', ie. the DPF is further from the heat source in some models than others so more post-injection is required.
To be fair to JLR/dealers, driving style does affect this significantly. If you do mostly short journeys and lots of cold starts then the regeneration cycle is likely to be interrupted frequently, leading to the engine spending significantly more time post-injecting. If that's the case, then you should not really be driving an EU6 diesel car. Most owners are unlikely to encounter the problem though if they have some longer journeys in the mix.
- Craigp
- Member Since: 09 Nov 2016
- Location: Hull
- Posts: 690
I posted this some time ago concerning my early service. The dealer assured me the oil change was free as he said it would be under warranty due to faulty software signalling an early change. On taking it in I was informed after several hours that after checking /analysing the oil it was indeed in need of a oil change and as such not covered by warranty. I did get it done free.
- harrythespider
- Member Since: 19 Jul 2018
- Location: cumbria
- Posts: 417
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The issue FIO does exist, the problem is that the engine does not analyse the oil, it relies on complicated software to estimate the possibility of maximum dilution.
Dealers do not have the ability to properly analyse the oil to accurately determine the extent of dilution, some oil manufacturers (e.g. millers) do, but there is a cost, I believe circa £30 per sample.
Its OK for some owners who are covered for the cost of extra oil changes ( until the warranty period expires), but not for the rest, and when ALL D5's are out of warranty and enter the sales market, who would buy a car that required oil changes at the frequency and cost experienced. I feel used car prices will plummet. Double wammy for D5 owners.
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 766
Bottom line, we will not know whether or what the problem is - whether actual dilution or poorly estimated dilution - unless many people start paying 30 quid every few months to get their oil tested independently, and done so every time the vehicle indicates the oil needs changing. So - test your oil and document it!
I've had my oil tested the last two times (I didn't do it the first time), and I had a virgin Castrol sample tested. I'll test mine several more times. The first time I had it tested, it went about 4600 miles and reached 3.0% dilution vs. an indicated 6.1%. The second time, after the software update, it went 5700 miles and exhibited less than 0.5% dilution vs. an indicated 6.1%. According to my lab, the Castrol Edge Pro JLR spec is habitually light on viscosity and lower in TBN (a measure of additives that enhance oil life) as compared to similar oils. So JLR may not be doing us any favors by mandating Castrol.
If it's a software problem, they can likely update that with little cost per unit to have it installed. If it's a hardware problem, don't expect any changes to an engine that, as others have said, are about to be obsolete - it would likely cost JLR less to offer free oil changes to owners who don't already have the prepaid maintenance plan.
I drove my Dieselgate-cheatin' 2010 Touareg over 100,000 trouble-free miles with no oil life indicator, changed the oil every 10,000 miles, and only ever received a notification that the DPF needed a passive regen cycle once, at about 90,000 miles. Drove it for 40 minutes at high RPM and the condition cleared. VW reportedly claims they've tested their engines up to 50% dilution with no ill effects. Other manufacturers of heavy-duty pickups here in the states (6.0L V6 and V8 turbodiesels) will allow theirs to run to 10% FIO, and these are trailering horse trailers and in farm/work-truck applications - far more stressful than school runs and family road trips.
- harrythespider
- Member Since: 19 Jul 2018
- Location: cumbria
- Posts: 417
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with reference to a supplementary heat source i.e induction coil. its only neccessary for it to bolster the already high exhaust gas temp for it to reach the DPF to regenerate. Its not required to heat the gas up from cold, therefor the demands on it would not be massive.
- samyil
- Member Since: 08 Jan 2018
- Location: uk
- Posts: 58
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Mine has had 2 oil changes in 7k. I have a service plan but my dealer says the oil changes are coming from warranty so not affecting plan. All fine whilst vehicle is in warranty but what after? I will 30k or more per year so, maybe 10 oil changes in a year! What will jlr do about this or problem? Anyone in the know will not want to buy this engine as a used car.
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 766
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After warranty, I will be switching oil to a higher viscosity / higher TBN oil that's designed for diesel engines with a DPF, such as Mobil 1 ESP 5W30, and changing my own oil every 10,000 miles whether there's a warning light on or not.
I bought an 8L fluid vacuum pump for $100 on Amazon, and changing the oil in the Disco via this method is a breeze, and clean - 15 minutes tops. I can also get that oil and filter on Amazon, or at my local big-box store or auto parts store.
- Qwertyd5x
- Member Since: 25 Aug 2018
- Location: Highland
- Posts: 65
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Today I travelled with a work acquaintance who has a 17 plate 3ltr HSE D5. I knew he did big miles, faster than most, but mostly rural. I asked if he had had any issues with oil dilution. He hadn’t heard of it. I asked if his car had required many services and he said, funny I should ask! His car is a 17 plate on 35k miles and he has had 3 services, but his service light comes on after every 4-5k miles, but his dealer tells him to drive until 10k, then bring it in. He has the service pack, has never been charged and he is (was) blissfully unaware of any D5 issues. He said up to its first service it drunk adblue faster than he could fill it, but the dealer also sorted that and now it didn’t use much. Until today, he was very happy with his car!
We know web forums can very very unrepresentative of problems, but today served to remind me that many or most owners may also be experiencing this issue, unaware that its a problem and that they shouldn’t have it!
