Discovery 2017

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  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 754
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    VeryDisco5 wrote:

    Unfortunately, there is a difference between JM's "idealised" architecture that need to be used with their specialist, patented coatings and the JLR implementation (L550 and L462 alike). JM diagrams always show the TURBO-DOC-DPF triplet being very close-coupled so that while the DOC is performing the first oxidation. the DPF is kept hot enough to work in passive regeneration mode, thus minimising the amount of soot it has to store for the active regeneration to come. But something isn't working in the passive mode and - because it is passive - this is unlikely in my view to have anything to do with software control. I think the elephant in the room is that, until the DOC is lit up during a regen "burn", the gasses arriving in the DPF are laden with (relatively) cool HC/PM and there's just not enough heat there to perform passive regeneration.


    The turbo-DOC-DPF are just about as close as they can legitimately get to the hottest exhaust gases in a single-turbo setup, short of dropping the turbo between the Vee, which comes with its own (durability) problems in a high-compression diesel engine. The cooling in the cross-flow pipe from the RHS is likely negligible as long as exhaust gases are flowing continuously - it's nestled right up between the firewall and the engine block, with little passive cooling through air movement across it. I would think they took that length of pipe (18-24" tops?) into account in testing.

    Unfortunately, because of the stop-start feature, exhaust gases are not flowing continuously, and then you are getting measurable heat loss - in the cylinder/block as well as the exhaust system - that will result in a cooler ignition charge and thus increased soot production, which would then require more post-injection to manage the soot. Interestingly, a cooler ignition charge also reduces NOx production. I would wager the heat loss from stopping the engine is far greater than any heat-sink effect from the cross flow pipe under continuous load. Under continuous load and with nowhere for the heat to go, it will reach thermal saturation eventually. Still, this pipe (and the entire system) has to heat up after a cold start, so certainly early in a trip this could be a contributing factor as it will be slower to do so than the LHS.

    Maybe there's a combination of both - perhaps the engine design operates at the lower end of its ideal temperature range, and perhaps the stop-start function tips that balance toward the sooty side.

    Also, there is no difference between the EU5 and EU6 particulate matter requirements. The SCR was added to address the more stringent NOx requirements, but that's downstream of the DPF. The DPF doesn't appear to have moved at all. But the soot sensor is downstream of the SCR now. Could this have an effect?

    As far as software - prior to September 2015 VW, Mercedes, and FCA each implemented a "just pass the test" control strategy, with the help of Bosch software, which turned down or turned off diesel emissions controls (particularly w/r/t NOx and SCR function) outside the EPA test regime. JLR wanted in on the (at the time) quickly-growing US diesel market, and with the subsequent withdrawal of more than 50% of the market for passenger-car light-duty diesels, they likely doubled down on those plans to meet pent-up demand. But, and this is speculation, perhaps they had to make some hasty changes to their software to ensure it functions 100% of the time, rather than just the first 22 minutes of driving, but I have no proof of this. US Tier 3 Bin 160 standards are more stringent than even EU6 for NOx and PM; so effectively, JLR had to increase compliance to meet US standards once they decided to bring those diesels here. Tier 3 Bin 160 went into effect in 2017 also, but the preceding Tier 2 Bin 5 were also more stringent than EU5. Perhaps the increased post-injection function (perhaps the volume of the injection?), which is controlled by software, is a side effect of whatever changes to the software they implemented? Again, speculation, but since the changes to the vehicle appear only to add an SCR downstream of the DPF (which doesn't affect PM management) and add an SCR between the DPF and the soot sensor (which may affect how soot is measured)...that kind of leaves software (or perhaps software calibration of associated sensors) as a possible contributing factor.
    14th May 2018 9:09 pm
  • DG
    Member Since: 27 Apr 2016
    Location: Surrey
    Posts: 434
    United Kingdom 
    2018 Discovery Sd4 (240) HSE Fuji White

    VeryDisco5 wrote:

    I am sorry that you see my participation in this discussion as negative - but until someone says it's fixed there remains a significant problem with some cars and it's one that I believe potential buyers should be aware of. To my way of thinking, talking about it is the MOST helpful thing to do when the manufacturer seems to be in denial. And, to be fair, isn't this thread entitled "'Service Required' after only 5,000 miles!"?


    When you keep referring to Ingenium problems it's not helpful to SD4 240 D5 owners \ potential owners viewing this site as issue in question doesn't apply to them ...my point is that information might be very helpful elsewhere ....but not here.

    VeryDisco5 wrote:
    DG wrote:
    It seems to me that in the case of the V6, the software needs updating.

    Is there any evidence available which led you to this conclusion?


    Nothing more than grapevine for now.
    14th May 2018 9:42 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    Some good ideas there DR, as you say it is probably down to a combination of factors. My dealer said as much regarding the prospect of finding a solution - a little bit here, a little bit there. It all helps but lets keep hoping for that big break-through you envisage.

    I agree there's little change evident in the external appearance of the EU6 exhaust except for the addition of the SCR - but we don't know whether the existing CSF and DOC coatings were modified at the same time that the SCRF and SCR devices appeared, nor what impact there might have been on overall system effectiveness from lowering the combustion temperatures for better NOx control. A lot of unknowns. Oh, and while I remember, see that wording "Possible System Solutions" on the SCRT/SCRF schematic? That comes from a sales presentation given in February 2014, 7 months before the start of the EU6 implementation window. Original file https://futurepowertrains.co.uk/2014/prese...arsson.pdf

    Here's another thing to add to my list of common factors, then: for ALL the cars referred to in the SCN this was an especially critical period as any changes for the forthcoming 16MY models had to have been tested and signed off to meet the reduced HC+NOx and NOx levels required when production was restarted.

    You recently asked about the RR and RRS with the same engine. I just had a quick trawl and found the following on two web-sites. Its not an exhaustive list but it lends support to the veracity of statements contained in the SCN which anticipated faster than expected diesel build up across all 5 models.

    http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic39464.html
    http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic45086.html
    http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic45559.html?start=3
    http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic47164.html
    http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic44390.html
    http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic47263.html
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic42575.html
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic49744.html
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic48967.html
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic47287.html
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic46061.html
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic44532.html
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic49589.html?start=25
    http://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/topic40283.html?start=5


    Last edited by VeryDisco5 on 15th May 2018 9:20 am. Edited 1 time in total
    15th May 2018 12:16 am
  • Chalkys HSE
    Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
    Location: Yorkshire
    Posts: 339
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Corris Grey

    I can beat 5K Miles

    I’ve got it down to 2K 😳. Before anyone blames my driving style, towing, off roaring or stop start functionality, I drive 90% motorway, never been off the tarmac and it’s towed nothing, always disable stop start, and rarely get up to the speed llimit on congested U.K. motorways.

    It doesn’t look likely that I will be using this expensive luxury vehicle to conduct our annual trip to Southern Spain this year as it would require servicing for the return journey,

    I have read all the posts and hope this conforms with the threads intended topic, but the fact remains for me at least, that this vehicle is not fit for its intended use, if it were I would be able to drive it for extended periods without it requiring an Oil and filter change.

    I’ve lost 5700 miles off my service level indicator whilst traveling 203 miles,









    2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails,
    15th May 2018 8:38 am
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    Regarding twin turbos, the following thread contains an unconfirmed report that TDV6 has now been dropped.

    https://disco5.co.uk/forum/thread1227.html

    Edit. Confirmed the following 3.0L diesel options on the UK configurator.

    L405 RR- TDV6 3.0L from £80,035
    L462 D5 - TDV6 not listed. 3.0L Sd6 from £57,005
    L494 RRS TDV6 not listed. 3.0L SDV6 from £65,585
    15th May 2018 9:19 am
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 754
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Chalkys HSE wrote:
    I can beat 5K Miles

    I’ve got it down to 2K 😳. Before anyone blames my driving style, towing, off roaring or stop start functionality, I drive 90% motorway, never been off the tarmac and it’s towed nothing, always disable stop start, and rarely get up to the speed llimit on congested U.K. motorways.


    This is why this is so hard to diagnose from our armchair sleuthing. There are plenty of outliers like this - even several that seem to be going the distance, or very close to it.

    Design, software, quality control in parts/production...could all be a factor. When all the planets align, you get a great vehicle - or a terrible one. Maybe even from week to week in the production cycle.

    Time will tell. The way I see it, this online discussion - while resembling an after-work pub discussion - serves as a record. If JLR are reading this - and I believe they are, at least occasionally - then maybe they are looking into it. Regardless of the cause, as I've said before, their least expensive course of action is to offer free off-cycle oil changes. At least some are getting that courtesy.
    15th May 2018 2:04 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    DR, with 2 turbos will they have two separate exhaust streams a bit like we were discussing? That would go a long way towards sorting things out with the post-injection, if heat does turn out to be part of the problem. Probably eliminate it totally would be my guess.
    15th May 2018 2:19 pm
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 754
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    I don't know about the SD6 or what they're planning for the Ingenium, other than the larger Ingenium diesel may be an inline-6. A turbo inline six will either have one larger VGT or two smaller turbos (probably also VGTs or twin-scrolls), one for three cylinders each.

    Regardless of the number of turbos, I would expect that the exhaust stream will have to come together at some point prior to the DPF and SCR because those systems are expensive, and having two of them drives cost and doubles the chance that one will fail within warranty, resulting in an expensive claim. In the US, the EPA requires a warranty for 8 years/80,000 miles for major emissions components (catalysts, ECUs, OBDs, etc - so that includes the DPF and SCR). The rest of the system must be warrantied for at least 2 years/24,000 miles (DEF injectors, sensors, etc).
    15th May 2018 5:49 pm
  • rogersmj
    Member Since: 30 Aug 2017
    Location: Hampshire
    Posts: 213
    United Kingdom 
    2018 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Corris Grey

    So guys, my MY18 has done just 1800 miles, and i've just had the service needed message pop up!

    Going to contact my dealership first thing Monday and tell them theres no way i'm paying for a service for a car thats 3 months old and covered less than 2000 miles!
    MY18 Corris Grey HSE Lux TDV6
    20th May 2018 12:08 pm
  • Trevorb1
    Member Since: 08 Jan 2018
    Location: Nuneaton
    Posts: 275
    United Kingdom 
    2018 Discovery Td6 SE Corris Grey

    rogersmj, my 18MY had an oil change yesterday, went down to 0 miles to next oil service at 4800 miles.
    When dealer does the oil change make sure he raises an EPQR for the issue, the more times this gets reported, the more likely something will be done to investigate it.
    24MY D300 Dynamic SE, Fuji White, Deployable Towbar, full size spare.
    Gone 20MY SDV6 Landmark, Indus Silver, Deployable Towbar, 360 Cameras
    20th May 2018 2:41 pm
  • rogersmj
    Member Since: 30 Aug 2017
    Location: Hampshire
    Posts: 213
    United Kingdom 
    2018 Discovery Td6 HSE Lux Corris Grey

    Will do Trevorb1.

    I've talked to the dealership, who are having the car in on Thursday morning. Seems that they are all ready to change the oil filter, so i'm guessing than this isn't the first D5 with this they have seen!

    Will keep you updated...
    MY18 Corris Grey HSE Lux TDV6
    21st May 2018 11:10 am
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 754
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Order an oil test kit online and ask them to draw some oil, or insist on being allowed to do so yourself if you don't have the means (e.g., vacuum extractor) at home.

    If you don't have time, any clean container will do until you get the kit. Glass bottle like a jelly jar would work best, just make sure it's at least 3 fluid ounces.
    22nd May 2018 1:28 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    DieselRanger wrote:
    perhaps they had to make some hasty changes to their software to ensure it functions 100% of the time, rather than just the first 22 minutes of driving, but I have no proof of this.

    A potential link between this problem and the use of defeat devices (or lack thereof) was first muted after someone compared the high oil dilution, increased Ad-Blue usage, intermittently slow acceleration and lower fuel economy of many Discovery Sport SUVs to reports from VW owners about the performance of their cars after they had been in to have the diesel cheat software disabled (The Guardian).

    Within two working days of the EPA announcement regarding VW, JLR was distributing a Dealer FAQ sheet on the subject, having already briefed the press to distance itself from the use of diesel defeat devices that it said might be linked by the media with other wrongdoing alleged to have been committed by Toyota and GM (Birmingham Post) . It was almost as if JLR knew in advance what was coming before it happened. A dealer I spoke to received the FAQ by email first thing Monday morning (21st Sept) and thought WTF? because news of the EPA action had yet to reach them. However, two years later, and 2 months after blame for the oil dilution (including the D5) had finally been pinned by JLR on exhaust "hardware and architecture" issues (see JLRP00100), the manufacturer was openly advertising for the services of Diesel Defeat Device Compliance Engineers. No explanation has ever been offered for this apparent change of policy.

    VW found it necessary to adopt the defeat device strategy in the first place because, according to Wikipedia, it isn't easy to make Selective Catalytic Reduction, or SCR, work properly on diesel engines: "In general, three-way catalytic converter technology, which has been very effective since the early 1980s at reducing nitrogen oxide in petrol engine exhaust, does not work well for diesel exhaust because of its relatively high proportion of oxygen."

    It is academic today whether or not JLR contemplated the use of diesel defeat devices in its EU6 vehicles from 16MY because the old test they would have been designed to beat is just about to be replaced: that they didn't resort to the use of such devices is obvious. The question is now whether SCR can ever be made to work properly using modified software (or something else) in order to comply with RDE tests at the same time as having a workable HC/PM system that wouldn't leave the car needing an oil change every 3,000 miles for the worst affected drivers. Assuming that fundamental hardware and architecture changes have been ruled out due to cost for existing models, this could explain why the 3.0L TDV6 engine needed to go before September 2018...

    ...and why the "Sd6" version will turn out to be a brand-new Ingenium offering?

    EDIT: Wishful thinking. The consensus on the TDV6 thread is that "Sd6" still means the V6 and any Ingenium 6-cyl is still a year away,
    23rd May 2018 1:25 am
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 754
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Beware Wikipedia.

    As someone who followed the Court proceedings for VW's class action closely, I assure you there was no technical reason why VW could not engineer SCR systems into their vehicles, as proven by internal company documents. It was purely profit-motivated and motivated by Piech-Porsche family arrogance and micromanagement. They were angered by Stuttgart neighbors Mercedes Benz who offered to license their Bluetec technology to VW for a healthy fee - and the result was to the effect of, "screw them, we can do this ourselves and we will bury them." They then horse-whipped their engineers to update the TDI architecture, guided by their beancounter-driven risk management plan and a liberal interpretation of US EPA and EU regulations.

    Every manufacturer knew a liberal interpretation of the EPA regulations was occurring, if not the reason behind it, and they likely concluded that if VW can get away with "just passing the test," then so can we. Since Bosch provided most of the engine management software used in the diesel passenger car industry among EU automakers, they likely advertised their software as "compliant" after their single biggest customer helped them engineer it. Bosch paid me $1,500 on top of VW's $25,000 or so for this deception.

    SCR is a proven technology on diesel locomotives, ships, and heavy-fuel-fired power plants and industrial generators. Cummins, Ford and GM have been doing it legally in the US for almost a decade. Synthetic oil formulations are in constant evolution as well.

    My oil analysis kit arrived today, and I am now down to zero miles until service. I'm drawing my dirty oil shortly.
    23rd May 2018 9:18 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    DieselRanger wrote:
    Beware Wikipedia.

    SCR is a proven technology on diesel locomotives, ships, and heavy-fuel-fired power plants and industrial generators. Cummins, Ford and GM have been doing it legally in the US for almost a decade. Synthetic oil formulations are in constant evolution as well.

    Just how good are the various SCR/SCRF systems at minimising NOx in JLR cars in real world tests? The data from EQUA Index suggests that five JLR diesels would pass the EU6 test, but three of these would exceed NOx by 50% in RDE.:

    Jag E-Pace. 2018 2.0L 237BHP 4WD Auto EU6 (A+)
    Jaguar XE . 2016 2.0L 178BHP RWD Auto EU6 (C)
    Jaguar XF . 2016 3.0L 296BHP RWD Auto EU6 (C)
    Jaguar XF . 2018 2.0L 237BHP 4WD Auto EU6 (A)
    LR Evoque . 2016 2.0L 178BHP 4WD Auto EU6 (C)

    Discovery models tested performed as follows:

    LR Disco 5. 2012 3.0L 255BHP 4WD Auto EU5 (H)
    LR Disco 5. 2013 3.0L 255BHP 4WD Auto EU5 (E)
    LR Disco 5. 2017 2.0L 237BHP 4WD Auto EU6 (E)

    The surprise here is that in RDE-type testing the Ingenium 2.0L only meets the standard for EU3..

    A+ =Meets EU 5/6 for petrols
    A = Meets EU6 for diesels
    C = Meets EU5 for diesels (equivalent to 1.5 x conformity factor for EU6 RDE)
    E = Meets EU3 for diesels
    H = Approximately 12 times EU6 limits

    DieselRanger wrote:
    My oil analysis kit arrived today, and I am now down to zero miles until service. I'm drawing my dirty oil shortly.

    DR, it would be very useful for other owners if you could obtain a reading from the car's Service Reset Menu (before they reset the counters) to compare with the real percentage you get back from the oil sample.

    Edit to make the post clearer, added some data.
    23rd May 2018 11:29 pm
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