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- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 766
Trevorb1 wrote:
My 18my V6d currently done 2500miles, oil service now due in 8650 miles, adblue range to empty 4225 miles, 8l required to refill. My Eu5 V6d D4 managed to go 16000 miles between services, so D5 is looking like needing at least 1 intermediate service doing exactly the same route and driving.
My point is, compliance of an engine prior to MY 2015/16 is completely different from compliance of the same engine to the same standard in 2018.
The difference is, compliance used to mean "in a laboratory setting" but it now means "all the time."
I don't believe that JLR had time to test their engine oil prior to making changes in their diesel engine management software in order to make it compliant "all the time". As a result, it's insufficient to guarantee the service intervals promised. This may have been an unintended consequence of Dieselgate.
It takes years and a lot of money to design and certify engines - so while the Ingenium 4cyls and the Lion Td6 were designed before Dieselgate against a "we just have to pass the laboratory test" regulatory environment, they had to be certified in a "you must meet standards in all on-road driving conditions" environment. So, the choices they had were, get the current engine certified; or throw out the current designs and go back to the drawing board and redesign from scratch. Diesel engines working as they do, there are only two variables that control NOx and fine particulate emissions output: one is ad blue injection rate/volume, the other is post-combustion injection rate/volume. JLR had to change both, if they didn't want to spend many millions of dollars re-designing from scratch, without ever seeing a dime of revenue from the current design they would have to scrap.
It seems to me that JLR is doing right by those who bring early service indicators to light - most people posting to this thread indicate they've had a free oil change (myself included) for experiencing oil dilution or other reasons for an early service. If JLR continues with the policy of providing off-schedule oil changes for free, then for me, I'm satisfied. -
- Trevorb1
- Member Since: 08 Jan 2018
- Location: Nuneaton
- Posts: 284
Unfortunately, the official landrover policy is that only vehicles who's warranty started before June 2017 get free oil changes, those starting after that date have to pay for the oil change. Has anyone on here managed to get free oil change with a vehicle with warranty start date after June 2017?
24MY D300 Dynamic SE, Fuji White, Deployable Towbar, full size spare.
Gone 20MY SDV6 Landmark, Indus Silver, Deployable Towbar, 360 Cameras -
- Chalkys HSE
- Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
- Location: Yorkshire
- Posts: 339
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I thought that was the case also, mine is booked in next week where by I will have rattled through my 16,000 miles in less than 1,000 miles !
Which I find quite frankly pathetic, the course of action for me is quite simple, change the Oil or sell it sell to some other fool who is happy to book in to 5 separate dealers en route to southern Spain and back. Dieselgate or not there’s no way in this day and age buyers should be purchasing vehicles that manufacturers have produced that aren’t fit for purpose.
2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails, -
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 766
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Trevorb1 wrote:
Unfortunately, the official landrover policy is that only vehicles who's warranty started before June 2017 get free oil changes, those starting after that date have to pay for the oil change. Has anyone on here managed to get free oil change with a vehicle with warranty start date after June 2017?
Yes, my warranty started in September 2017, and they changed mine for free at about 5500 miles. I do not have the prepaid service plan.
Last edited by DieselRanger on 24th Mar 2018 11:47 pm. Edited 1 time in total -
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 766
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Chalkys HSE wrote:
I thought that was the case also, mine is booked in next week where by I will have rattled through my 16,000 miles in less than 1,000 miles !
Which I find quite frankly pathetic, the course of action for me is quite simple, change the Oil or sell it sell to some other fool who is happy to book in to 5 separate dealers en route to southern Spain and back. Dieselgate or not there’s no way in this day and age buyers should be purchasing vehicles that manufacturers have produced that aren’t fit for purpose.
I'll agree that blowing through your oil change interval in less than 1,000 miles is not normal nor should it be explained by simply having to change engine management software to achieve on-road compliance. Something else is wrong there.
I do believe there is also a software calibration issue or an issue in the way the software counts regeneration cycles or both, and that it needs to be worked out. -
- Nenad
- Member Since: 06 Mar 2018
- Location: Belgrade
- Posts: 10
DieselRanger wrote:
Nenad wrote:
DieselRanger wrote:
"Driving style" refers more to the length of trips, stop/go conditions and how heavy your right foot is. Combine short trips, stop/go driving, and a heavy right foot, and that's "extreme" for a diesel engine that requires lengthy regeneration cycles at a constant operating temp to keep the DPF clean. The more they're driven like this, the harder the active regeneration has to work and the more diesel dilution the engine will experience.
IMO, JLR should not be encouraging people who only intend to use them for around-town driving and school runs to buy diesels. They're highway engines and engines designed to work hard on the trail or towing.
This is unacceptable. I've been driving diesels for 20 years now, no such issues.
Yes, but you have been driving diesels under a slowly tightening regulatory structure, plus one characterized most recently by malicious compliance, that has now resulted in the need for automakers who wish to continue to sell diesels without the risk of billions of dollars in fines to take extreme measures.
I hope someone is working on a better mousetrap and new synthetic oil formulations to reduce diesel emissions and extend oil service life, but until then, you're going to have to refill your adblue and change your oil more frequently if you want to drive a diesel.
You make it sound like no one beside LR is selling diesels these days. Volvo has comparable engine in their XC90. A friend of mine bought new Nissan X-Trail, diesel 2.0, 177PS, service interval - 30k kilometers. No additive, just DPF.
Last edited by Nenad on 27th Mar 2018 12:28 am. Edited 1 time in total -
- Craigp
- Member Since: 09 Nov 2016
- Location: Hull
- Posts: 690
DieselRanger wrote:
Chalkys HSE wrote:
I thought that was the case also, mine is booked in next week where by I will have rattled through my 16,000 miles in less than 1,000 miles !
Which I find quite frankly pathetic, the course of action for me is quite simple, change the Oil or sell it sell to some other fool who is happy to book in to 5 separate dealers en route to southern Spain and back. Dieselgate or not there’s no way in this day and age buyers should be purchasing vehicles that manufacturers have produced that aren’t fit for purpose.
I'll agree that blowing through your oil change interval in less than 1,000 miles is not normal nor should it be explained by simply having to change engine management software to achieve on-road compliance. Something else is wrong there.
I do believe there is also a software calibration issue or an issue in the way the software counts regeneration cycles or both, and that it needs to be worked out.
As i said at the time when i booked mine in for an early oil change, in phone calls there was no question who was paying for the oil LR. However when i took it in they tested the oil and told me it was infact dirty or contaminated so i would have to pay as this was not a false alarm. They did do it for free after i sulked and stamped my foot. But under the impression they picked up the bill and not LR. -
- VeryDisco5
- Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
- Location: Southern England
- Posts: 63
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The dealers WILL get paid - provided they follow the guidance in JLRP00100. Nevertheless, privately one admitted to me that warranty work is seen as a necessary evil that comes with the territory but pays little compared to the yield per hour from servicing.
The car doesn't have any systems capable of reading the actual oil condition. It can only estimate the diesel dilution percentage based on post-injection activity recorded since the last reset of the service mileage counters.
The D5 TDV6 service interval problem is specific to the model and is caused by the faulty "hardware and architecture" of its exhaust system design. Because of ineffective passive regeneration (insufficient heat) the DPF must always be regenerated "actively". This requires more frequent and longer periods of post injection of unburnt fuel than the system was designed to cope with. Some of this extra fuel is "adsorbed" into the oil film and then gets scraped off the cylinder walls into the sump. It does not, as some uninformed commentators have stated, "pool" in the cylinders when the engine is turned off during a regeneration - that is an absurd interpretation based on ignorance of the engineering concepts.
Also on the subject of ignorance and misinformation, this shouldn't be confused with the generic "short journey" problem that affects all diesels (including Eu5 and earlier) even those where the DPF is bolted straight onto the turbo-charger outlet. Cars like the XE/XF Jags do NOT suffer the same as the Evoque/DS despite having identical engines - they work properly because they don't have 3 feet of pipe between the turbo and the DPF acting as a heat sink. A similar issue causes the problem being experienced with the D5: the DPF simply isn't getting hot enough in normal, everyday driving.
The painful truth, especially for such an expensive car, is that this can't be fixed easily, quickly or cheaply. Ergo, it's probably something that existing owners might have to learn to live with. Only time will tell.
Last edited by VeryDisco5 on 26th Mar 2018 11:08 pm. Edited 1 time in total -
- Craigp
- Member Since: 09 Nov 2016
- Location: Hull
- Posts: 690
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Thanks for the above. Its been posted on here that vehicles purchased before june 2017 qualify for free intermediate oil changes. How true is this and why the cut off date. Thanks -
- VeryDisco5
- Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
- Location: Southern England
- Posts: 63
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The service compliance notification was released in July 2017 to clarify the company's position in respect of a legal liability stemming from the sale of hundreds of thousands of Land Rover vehicles that the company suspected would struggle, in the main, to perform according to the claims made in printed marketing materials and on the internet. The 2017MY Discovery Sport brochure, for example, stated proudly:
Not only are the new Ingenium engines substantially lighter, more fuel-efficient and more refined than predecessors, they are also *more affordable and convenient to own thanks to servicing intervals extended from 16,000 to 21,000 miles/two years.
(*my emphasis)
In October 2017 engineers who had worked on the exhaust system design team for the Discovery Sport disclosed to a service manager at my local dealership that JLR knew internally as early as 2015 that owners could experience premature diesel dilution problems due to the ineffective hardware and architecture of the exhaust. According to this source, when the matter was raised with senior managers, the engineers were told that the car would go to market with the 21,000 mile/2 year service interval for commercial reasons and their requests for a shorter service interval were denied.
The publication of the SCN in July 2017 was coordinated with the withdrawal on 1st June of the original servicing claims (hard-copy and internet), a move which would prevent any more new owners bringing civil claims for misrepresentation. JLRP00100 draws a line in the sand and states that owners of cars with warranties starting on 1st June 2017 or later would get no financial assistance regarding the additional services. However, individual cases would still be problematic, for example where an owner could demonstrate that they had based their decision to purchase a car on the old sales materials but didn't take delivery until June. But in typical big-business style, JLR's approach was to shoot and be prepared to answer questions later.
This still leaves potentially hundreds of thousands of existing owners who could theoretically claim that there had been a misrepresentation if, as in my case, their purchasing decision was based on a misleading written or verbal representation made by the company or its agents, e.g. the brochure extract shown above. That's why, if your car's warranty started no later than 31st May 2017, JLR will continue to pay for the additional servicing out of its warranty provision and allow the dealers to charge back for the work - provided that the strict guidelines in SCN JLRP00100 are followed. Whether the additional oil changes will be enough to prevent secondary failures and premature component ageing (e.g. shortened DPF life due to the extra regenerations) remains to be seen.
How long they will continue to pay for these additional services isn't clear but a good guide would be that those with a service plan will be covered out to 50,000 miles or 5 years; someone without a service plan can expect the arrangement to cease at the end of the 3 year warranty period. Jaguar Land Rover still refuses to state publicly any such terms, mainly for the reason that they don't acknowledge the existence of the SCN in the first place. To do that would be an admission that the widespread suggestions of a design error are correct. The specifics of the servicing problems on the All-new Discovery aren't known to the same level of detail but its inclusion in JLRP00100 and the nature of the problems being experienced by owners on this forum would suggest that it is suffering from a very similar, if not identical, design issue.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by VeryDisco5 on 26th Mar 2018 10:42 pm. Edited 3 times in total -
- Craigp
- Member Since: 09 Nov 2016
- Location: Hull
- Posts: 690
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Certainly does. Thanks for the time and effort put into your reply. Much appreciated. -
- Chalkys HSE
- Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
- Location: Yorkshire
- Posts: 339
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Thank you, very concise and informative. Appreciated.
2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails, -
- Nenad
- Member Since: 06 Mar 2018
- Location: Belgrade
- Posts: 10
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VeryDisco5 wrote:
Hope that helps.
Yes, thank you.
So it affects both 3.0 and 2.0 engines? -
- DiscoStu
- Member Since: 28 Apr 2016
- Location: Greater London
- Posts: 407
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On a D5 it is only the 3.0 that is impacted
MY19 Silver HSE Lux SDV6
MY19 Carpathian Grey HSE Lux SDV6 - gone, MY18 Carpathian Grey HSE Lux TDV6 - gone -
- Chalkys HSE
- Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
- Location: Yorkshire
- Posts: 339
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My cars just been done all under warranty and it’s less than a month old so the June 2017 thing is either Dealer Specific or an internet Myth !
👻
The good news is I get to keep it 🤗 because rejecting a car is not conducive to maintaining a healthy heart. Not only that, you know when you get a car and it just feels solid and right ? Well this is one of those. Fantastic car and if you are reading this in the belief that the off set number plate will create baldness, infertility and diphtheria then I’d hurry up and buy one. Because it’s all codswallop.
Last edited by Chalkys HSE on 27th Mar 2018 4:23 pm. Edited 1 time in total
2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails,
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