Discovery 2017

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  • Craigp
    Member Since: 09 Nov 2016
    Location: Hull
    Posts: 690
    England 

    Its funny but i get the same feeling when we get a new cat.Rolling with laughter

    You see i can change history as well. Next time i will quote you so its there for posterity. 8 Wink


    Last edited by Craigp on 27th Mar 2018 4:29 pm. Edited 1 time in total
    27th Mar 2018 4:12 pm
  • Chalkys HSE
    Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
    Location: Yorkshire
    Posts: 339
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Corris Grey

    I’m going to edit my original post so that everyone’s going to be thinking what CAT ? 🐱

    Rolling with laughter
    2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails,
    27th Mar 2018 4:23 pm
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 766
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    Since I've stopped using my auto stop/start in daily driving, my service interval has decreased much more slowly. I had it reset with an oil change at a little under 6,000 miles; it started at 10,980 miles until service or thereabouts, and at a little over 8,000 miles it's showing about 8,000 miles remaining.

    Edit: a cursory search of RRS / FFRR threads have turned up a few instances of this happening on MY15+ Td6 vehicles, which coincidentally (or not) is when Dieselgate broke.
    27th Mar 2018 6:48 pm
  • chicken george
    Member Since: 31 Mar 2018
    Location: N. Yorks
    Posts: 51
    United Kingdom 

    VeryDisco5 wrote:


    Also on the subject of ignorance and misinformation, this shouldn't be confused with the generic "short journey" problem that affects all diesels (including Eu5 and earlier) even those where the DPF is bolted straight onto the turbo-charger outlet. Cars like the XE/XF Jags do NOT suffer the same as the Evoque/DS despite having identical engines - they work properly because they don't have 3 feet of pipe between the turbo and the DPF acting as a heat sink. A similar issue causes the problem being experienced with the D5: the DPF simply isn't getting hot enough in normal, everyday driving.



    ignorance and misinformation Rolling with laughter


    Ignore this un-researched clap trap. the two emissions systems are totally different the landy system is an scrf not a straight DPF . bolting an scrf directly to the turbo would over cook it and give it a thermal shock.

    The DOC needs to be hot so this is closed coupled,, then comes the DEF injection and a length of pipe to give the DEF chance to convert NOX before it hits the SCRF . This operates with an exothermic reaction once the NOx/O2 balance is correct. The SCRF eats the particles through a catalytic reaction, rather than burning them, whilst doing this it lowers the NOx levels to euro6 standard.

    The jag system has a thermal dpf which needs to be close coupled a works by burning off the particulates at intervals, but then the gases must travel to the back of the car to reach the SCR to be treated to euro6.
    Having the SCR at the rear of the car leads to incorrect NOx levels on cold starts/short runs - this leads to lots of layman confusion about placement of components and required heat levels , and also explains why manufacturers are moving to SCRF systems to reach constantly stricter euro standards.

    .

    The trouble is an SCRF will not passivly regen under all but the hardest driving, if then, so active regens are more frequent leading to more failed regens due to interrupted journeys
    31st Mar 2018 8:13 am
  • Chalkys HSE
    Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
    Location: Yorkshire
    Posts: 339
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Corris Grey

    Thanks George, Sounds like you are well informed on the subject, Do you know what is creating the Dilution, It would appear that the consesus is that it is Diesel ? Some have said that it is DEF, Not sure where but i've read that somewhere ?

    What is the potential damage caused to the engine ? increased wear ?

    Most engines are flagging up at about 5K - 6K Miles ? Should LR be calling these in earlier to calibrate the indicator levels, checking Dilution rates ?

    I'm just thinking from a preventative measures point of view ?
    2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails,
    31st Mar 2018 10:42 am
  • chicken george
    Member Since: 31 Mar 2018
    Location: N. Yorks
    Posts: 51
    United Kingdom 

    Dilution is caused by interrupted regeneration cycles.
    u
    Unfortunately the cure is avoid short journeys and hope LR can improve the software optimising the post fuel injection needed to warm the DOC.
    Diesel fuel will evaporate out of the sump to some extent so fuel dilution rates can drop at times. But the biodiesel element will not evaporate so will only increase the dilution.
    It doesnt help but is a fact that LR are not the only manufacturer with fuel dilution issues.

    Diferent sources rate the perils of fuel dilution differently. Diesel is a form of lubricant in itself, diesel injector pumps use the fuel as a lubricant
    but things like turbos need excellent lubrication so dilution cannot be ignored.

    This acticle mentions themal dpf's with soot burn not srcf type systems. But the post injection part is still relevant. In an srcf unburnt fuel should never reach tbe filter but be burnt in the DOC.
    http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/articles/...n-problem/
    Chicken George, Land Rover owner for decades , and proud buyer of British products.
    31st Mar 2018 10:56 am
  • Chalkys HSE
    Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
    Location: Yorkshire
    Posts: 339
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Corris Grey

    George, Thanks again Thumbs Up

    I rarely conduct short journeys, i drive 120 miles to work and then 4 -5 days later i drive back, That should give the engine all it needs to conduct a cycle of regeneration.

    I have seen similar issues regards other manufacturers so aware that this isn't merely isolated to LR.

    I am concerned that the Turbo is critical and the tolerances are dependant upon oil cleanliness.

    Having just had mine changed at 500 Miles i kept a sample of the Oil and intend to get it analysed at Millers Oil. And again at the interval when ever that comes up.
    2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails,
    31st Mar 2018 11:50 am
  • chicken george
    Member Since: 31 Mar 2018
    Location: N. Yorks
    Posts: 51
    United Kingdom 

    My car is a 2.0 disco sport, I have had oil change at 7000 miles, service indicator saying I should get to 19000 on this oil,, but it is a wait and see on that.

    Other that that is a good car, only been back to dealers for that oil change.everything else just works.

    White/light cream leather with young kids doesnt make sense but that was a wife error Rolling Eyes So far it cleans up well though
    Chicken George, Land Rover owner for decades , and proud buyer of British products.
    31st Mar 2018 12:27 pm
  • Chalkys HSE
    Member Since: 04 Jun 2017
    Location: Yorkshire
    Posts: 339
    United Kingdom 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Corris Grey

    I had a Disco Sport, briefly.... I won’t go into that here, all I will say say is that the moment I drive it out of the dealers I knew I’d dropped one,

    The moment I drove the D5 out of the dealers I knew I’d made the right decision, I bought a new Puma engined Defender 90 XS in 2008, that went in for some remedial works within a few months, software related and leaking transfer box, the part required was on back order, a lengthy wait ensued. A deal was done on a D3 XS and I never looked back. What I’m actually getting at is the sense of feeling I had when I first drove the D3 10 years ago was very much like the experience I had when I first drove the D5.

    It’s a great car, I very much doubt I will see 5 years in it, and with the best intentions it’s unlikely it will make it to the 3 year point. So for me I’ve just got to take the service intervals as they come and just enjoy the cars driving characteristics. So far so good.
    2017 MY D5 HSE 3.0 Td6 Corris Grey, Side steps, roof rails,
    31st Mar 2018 2:45 pm
  • chicken george
    Member Since: 31 Mar 2018
    Location: N. Yorks
    Posts: 51
    United Kingdom 

    I had a freel2 then RRS. Disco sport is more nibble than RRS yet usability is bigger inside.
    did about 80000 miles total in two previous vehicles with no major problems egr valve and brake calpier on RRS.

    Previously an fl1 commercial - headgasket failed petrol engine.
    various defenders going back decades some good some not so. All blue hard top vans so they all blur into one memory. Last one left us in 2002.
    I now run a rather unpatriotic ford ranger pickup.
    Chicken George, Land Rover owner for decades , and proud buyer of British products.
    31st Mar 2018 3:30 pm
  • Craigp
    Member Since: 09 Nov 2016
    Location: Hull
    Posts: 690
    England 

    What triggers a regen? Is it software or engine temp or whatever. If a shame it can't ask you if it can start one so you would then know if it had time to complete. Not sure how its carried out like how often, how long it takes etc. Is a part regen better than no regen. Sooo many questions Shocked
    31st Mar 2018 3:46 pm
  • chicken george
    Member Since: 31 Mar 2018
    Location: N. Yorks
    Posts: 51
    United Kingdom 

    Afaik regen is trigger when sensors before and after filter detect a restriction. Regen will not start until engine/system temp is up
    Chicken George, Land Rover owner for decades , and proud buyer of British products.
    31st Mar 2018 3:59 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    TDV6 Exhaust Architecture

    This document might be useful for D5 owners as it contains a full description of the TDV6 exhaust system for EU6 and NAS markets:

    http://www.blackgto.com/TDV6_3.0_Diesel.pdf

    As this manual clearly shows, the devices fitted to the V6 Discovery 5 are DOC-DPF- DEF injection-SCR. Whilst it's similar this is not the same as the Discover Sport. It does NOT have a SCRF for a start.

    Nevertheless, somewhere between these architectures there is commonality which we know has to do with "hardware and architecture" - it says as much in the SCN JLRP00100. That commonality could well be that both cars are suffering from a lack of heat at the required points in the exhaust system. Here's a diagram from the manual. The last component before No. 4 is the SCR.



    Back up on page 11 there's a link I made to a video explaining the SCRF system fitted to the Sport for anyone who's interested in pursuing the comparison a bit further.
    1st Apr 2018 11:19 am
  • DieselRanger
    Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
    Location: God's Country, Colorado
    Posts: 766
    United States 
    2017 Discovery Td6 HSE Silicon Silver

    chicken george wrote:
    Dilution is caused by interrupted regeneration cycles.
    u


    So let's pick at this a bit - "interrupted regeneration cycles" - if the cycle is interrupted, either through stop-start functionality (my guess, most of the time) and short drive cycles (compounding the problem), then there could actually be *less* diesel dilution than calculated, since I believe the system counts only regens *started*, not *completed* in estimating dilution percentage. However, the regeneration would be nearly constant if "long" road trips or hard driving aren't completed periodically, say once every two weeks or so.

    The system starts active regeneration only when it senses the DPF's back pressure has risen above a threshold, indicating a dirty DPF. It then commands active regeneration until that pressure drops below a threshold, which is likely lower than the activation threshold and perhaps equal to a "clean" DPF. It's far from impossible to force a passive regeneration - besides a longer road trip at speed or hard driving such as towing in hilly areas, simply take a drive of more than 30 minutes in manual mode and keep the RPMs above 3,000.

    This is why I believe 3.0Td6 owners should be taking oil samples and sending to independent analysis when the service indicator comes on regardless of interval.

    My daily commute is only about 10 miles one way, on surface streets with stoplights and speeds up to 65 mph but averaging about 35mph. Since I have stopped using the auto stop-start, my miles to next service has dropped less quickly, a little under 2:1, but way better than the 3:1 I experienced previously - and that is literally the only thing I have changed about my driving habits.
    1st Apr 2018 3:48 pm
  • VeryDisco5
    Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
    Location: Southern England
    Posts: 63
    United Kingdom 

    DR. If it's like the Disco Sport one of the conditions that disables Stop-Start is that an active regeneration is in progress. There are several others but DS owners were quickly onto this one because it helps identify when would be a good time not to stop the engine i.e. If SS turns the engine off when you pull up outside your front door, then it"s OK to turn the whole thing off.

    Also, another snippet of information, again relevant to the Sport is that a "full" SCRF-type DPF has a 36% soot loading (its a software parameter). After cleaning it starts off again at 10-12% loaded. So the "window" between Empty and Full is relatively limited.
    3rd Apr 2018 12:00 am
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