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- Craigp
- Member Since: 09 Nov 2016
- Location: Hull
- Posts: 690
My take on this is, I got the early service warning at around 1000 miles or so before required, had i taken it in at that point then its posible when they do the test on the oil it would have been below their threshold so carried out under warranty (would be classed as a false alarm) as i left it much later on the test fell into the category of dirty oil so valid alarm. The software update is probably more to do with delaying the alarm so its valid rather than fixing the problem. My advice, the second the warning comes on get it in. -
- VeryDisco5
- Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
- Location: Southern England
- Posts: 63
JLRP00100
The SCN gives the same explanation for the problem ("hardware and architecture differences") across five model lines: FFRR, RRS and D5 with 3.0 TDV6 + Evo / DS with 2.0 L Ingenium. On the DS, it is widely believed that:
* the DOC is too far away from the turbo for ANY passive regeneration to occur during normal driving (confirmed in writing by JLR 24th October '17)
* The SCRF uses advanced JM coatings on the filter which are good at NOx reduction but which need much longer active regens to burn the same soot load compared to a close-coupled SCF (JM powerpoint).
* Active regeneration takes 10 minutes of post-injection associated with retarded ignition to get up to temp then needs up to 30 minutes to complete the burn, significantly increasing the chance that the driver ends the journey too soon,
* A "Normal" driving pattern for the diesel DS is journeys of 15-30 minutes at speeds of between 31 and 62 MPH which MUST include "some" journeys of an hour. (JLR's own definition. This driving pattern assures completed active regens, anything less and the DPF has a high probability of clogging).
* Average distances to service are 10,117 according to an on-going poll of owners (forum).
* Iron deposits are building up at an average of 31 ppm every 1,000 miles of driving (owner-submitted oil analysis reports).
This explanation has been checked and confirmed by DEKRA and several people have successfully rejected their cars as not of satisfactory quality or not as described, quoting these reasons. The exhaust after treatment architecture of the 3.0 TDV6 it is very similar to that of the DS 2.0 in that it consists of loosely-coupled DOC-DEF-SCRF assembly. If this is what is causing the early service calls, it's not likely that it can be fixed by software updates - unless of course these are just going to raise the oil dilution threshold that triggers the service warning. But beware - post injection is associated with engine wear and the maximum recommended level of Iron in oil is normally 100 ppm "caution" 200 ppm "critical". DS oil samples (more than 20) show the caution/critical levels being reached on average at 3,000/6,000 miles respectively.
Service Interval Discussion: https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5379
SCRF Technology Discussion: https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7166 -
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 768
So I don't want to read 201 pages of posts - can you link specific posts of interest?
My daily commute is about 25-30 min each way at speeds between 35 and 65mph. I've stopped using the auto stop-start feature - I disable it immediately each drive cycle - and my oil service interval seems to be holding to an appropriate distance, decreasing only very slightly more quickly than miles driven. My trip home is uphill about 700 vertical feet net, about 1200 total, so the engine works a little harder then.
Previously, for most journeys, I was leaving stop-start active and it would engage several times per trip, which clearly interrupts the regen cycle.
I would really like to see a post including an exhaust system function specification from JLR for the 3.0L. -
- jimbg
- Member Since: 23 Jun 2016
- Location: Devon
- Posts: 1472
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Surely it would not stop/start if in the middle of a regen?
But maybe the software is not that clever. -
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 768
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According to the owner's manual, stop/start functions once the engine is in operating temp range and as long as the exterior ambient temperature is within a range.
The following conditions inhibit an auto stop:
- external temperature is less than approximately 28 deg F / -2 deg C or above 104F / 40C
- engine or other vehicle systems [presumably including the exhaust system] have not reached optimum operating temperature
- driver's seat belt is unbuckled
- demand for climate control (e.g., defog) requires engine to be running
- vehicle's battery is low
- auto stop/start is deactivated
- after reversing, the vehicle's speed has not exceeded 10mph
- shift paddles were used to select a gear.
So what's not clear is how the emissions control functions when auto stop-start is possible, once the engine and exhaust system have reached optimum operating temperature. -
- VeryDisco5
- Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
- Location: Southern England
- Posts: 63
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DieselRanger wrote:
So I don't want to read 201 pages of posts - can you link specific posts of interest?
A study of the soot burning efficiency of an SCRF catalyst vs a CSF during active regeneration. Presented at CLEERS 2016 by Johnson Matthey Tech Prog Manager Lasitha Cumaranatunge
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtop...930#p80263
Poll of owners to gauge actual distance they're getting on each charge of oil (Brochure = 21,000 miles. This was withdrawn from the dealers' shelves 1st June 2017)
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtop...053#p80053
Page 3 of a letter to an owner confirming for the first time what drivers are now expected to do to avoid clogging up the DPF because of incomplete active regerations. In the same paragraph they admit that passive regeneration does nothing in normal driving.
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/viewtop...234#p78234
Spreadsheet of oil samples highlighting high wear metal content, dilution and loss of specified viscosity. Most worrying is the near perfect correlation between mileage on the oil and the amount of Iron. It shows no downwards trend on higher mileage cars, even after an oil change.
https://www.discosportforums.co.uk/download/file.php?id=7167
Link to HonestJohn, car pundit for the UK Daily Telegraph. Scroll down to see all the faults regarding the oil dilution, a pair of videos that show the problems with the extended architecture and an exchange with JLR where they respond to the allegation that passive regeneration is non-existent. Note how they side-step the issue by changing the lexicon to talk about self-cleaning, as if this is how it was designed and the phrases passive and active regeneration never existed.
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/land...2015-l550/
Quote:
I would really like to see a post including an exhaust system function specification from JLR for the 3.0L.
They absolutely refuse to discuss this and refer any enquirer to the handbook. -
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 768
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Some thoughts on the referenced posts:
- I'm not a powertrain engineer, but I find it hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison between the JLR-developed 2.0L 4cyl Ingenium diesel in the DS and the Ford/Pugeot 3.0L 6cyl Lion engine. All diesel engines function more or less the same in that they all produce soot and NOx (the pollutants of primary concern) and all require some active management to mitigate them. But beyond that, they are very different.
- All the diesel engines listed in the spreadsheet have a small fraction of their service life in terms of mileage. One would expect that maybe 100 hours on a run-in stand would be accomplished at the engine factory, but diesel engines in general don't hit their stride until well into the tens of thousands of miles. The fuel economy in my 2010 VW Touareg 3.0 TDI didn't peak until around 30K miles, and stayed constant to over 100,000 miles when VW bought it back, indicating a very long "break in" period. Wear profiles are slower in diesels vs. gasoline engines in general, consistent with their longer service life. Not sure this spreadsheet tells us much - only two out of the sample exceed the 6.1% dilution limit. Let's see what it says about iron in a couple years. I also question who set the "caution" and "critical" limits on the spreadsheet, as 4.0% dilution is not "critical" in pretty much any diesel engine. The big HD diesels here in the Colonies that power big-dick pickups pull 17,000 lbs and even they can handle up to 7% dilution with no problem.
- Whatever limit is set for dilution likely includes a healthy margin, knowing that drivers may ignore the "service due" light until it's convenient for them to schedule an appointment and/or knowing that in some markets it takes weeks to get an appointment.
- The focus on NOx as the primary pollutant of concern (thanks, VW) means that engineers are making a trade-off. That trade-off has been to engineer the EGR system to pull cooler exhaust gases farther downstream to be fed back into the combustion chamber, which reduces the combustion temperature in the cylinder, which in turn reduces the amount of NOx produced. The trade-off is, this produces more soot. Google "rolling coal" to see extreme examples of this, courtesy of US rednecks modifying their rigs to dump excess fuel into the cylinder - with the requisite DPF Delete modification. Soot is a secondary concern, since it generally settles out quickly and is only an irritant in the immediate area of the emission. Unfortunately, it's still regulated, and someone in JLR has made the decision that the tradeoff is worth it.
- The law of unintended consequences means that they may have underestimated the impacts of that decision. Short of reducing post-injection volume or frequency and risking warranty replacements of DPF's (or SCRFs, whatever they want to call them), there's not much they can do.
- I believe they'll ultimately end up providing free oil changes within warranty to everyone. That's the cheapest option for JLR. -
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 768
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Some thoughts on the referenced posts:
- I'm not a powertrain engineer, but I find it hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison between the JLR-developed 2.0L 4cyl Ingenium diesel in the DS and the Ford/Pugeot 3.0L 6cyl Lion engine. All diesel engines function more or less the same in that they all produce soot and NOx (the pollutants of primary concern) and all require some active management to mitigate them. But beyond that, they are very different.
- All the diesel engines listed in the spreadsheet have a small fraction of their service life in terms of mileage. One would expect that maybe 100 hours on a run-in stand would be accomplished at the engine factory, but diesel engines in general don't hit their stride until well into the tens of thousands of miles. The fuel economy in my 2010 VW Touareg 3.0 TDI didn't peak until around 30K miles, and stayed constant to over 100,000 miles when VW bought it back, indicating a very long "break in" period. Wear profiles are slower in diesels vs. gasoline engines in general, consistent with their longer service life. Not sure this spreadsheet tells us much - only two out of the sample exceed the 6.1% dilution limit. Let's see what it says about iron in a couple years. I also question who set the "caution" and "critical" limits on the spreadsheet, as 4.0% dilution is not "critical" in pretty much any diesel engine. The big HD diesels here in the Colonies that power big-dick pickups pull 17,000 lbs and even they can handle up to 7% dilution with no problem.
- Whatever limit is set for dilution likely includes a healthy margin, knowing that drivers may ignore the "service due" light until it's convenient for them to schedule an appointment and/or knowing that in some markets it takes weeks to get an appointment.
- The focus on NOx as the primary pollutant of concern (thanks, VW) means that engineers are making a trade-off. That trade-off has been to engineer the EGR system to pull cooler exhaust gases farther downstream to be fed back into the combustion chamber, which reduces the combustion temperature in the cylinder, which in turn reduces the amount of NOx produced. The trade-off is, this produces more soot. Google "rolling coal" to see extreme examples of this, courtesy of US rednecks modifying their rigs to dump excess fuel into the cylinder - with the requisite DPF Delete modification. Soot is a secondary concern, since it generally settles out quickly and is only an irritant in the immediate area of the emission. Unfortunately, it's still regulated, and someone in JLR has made the decision that the tradeoff is worth it.
- The law of unintended consequences means that they may have underestimated the impacts of that decision. Short of reducing post-injection volume or frequency and risking warranty replacements of DPF's (or SCRFs, whatever they want to call them), there's not much they can do.
- I believe they'll ultimately end up providing free oil changes within warranty to everyone. That's the cheapest option for JLR. -
- VeryDisco5
- Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
- Location: Southern England
- Posts: 63
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DieselRanger wrote:
Some thoughts on the referenced posts:
- All the diesel engines listed in the spreadsheet have a small fraction of their service life in terms of mileage. One would expect that maybe 100 hours on a run-in stand would be accomplished at the engine factory, but diesel engines in general don't hit their stride until well into the tens of thousands of miles.
A few months ago that would have been a very good point, but some of these engines are now on their 2nd or even 3rd charge of oil. The mileages shown are 'since oil change' and so some cars have actual done 28-30 K miles. This is work in progress and only time will tell if there is going to be any levelling off; until this is reflected in the data no one can say but so far the Iron has, if anything, increased. The vehicle involved in last sample from 1 Jan 2018 for example had completed over 17,000 miles in total even though the poster shows 6,500 miles on his oil report because he'd already had an oil change. A big problem with the monitoring exercise is that many of the people who appreciated the risks are dumping their cars, and for obvious reasons these are the people more likely to have engaged in oil sampling in the first place. You can only lead the horse to the water.
The caution and critical levels are configurable in the spreadsheet - as is the starting viscosity. Just click on what you want to change and make of the raw data what you will. -
- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 768
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If iron and other metals are increasing over time through several oil changes across a large sample size, then that is indeed very concerning for the 2.0L engine. Sounds like JLR needs a different oil along with more frequent changes for that engine. Either the oil is too heavy and isn't penetrating to where the wear is happening, or it's too light and it's allowing too much metal-on-metal contact. The dilution values vs the iron content don't really suggest the wear is due to dilution - if dilution was high across the board and metals were correspondingly high, then there would be a stronger correlation, but from that data set it just looks like poor oil choice on the part of JLR. Would like to see the rows be for each vehicle, with sets of columns for each oil change interval. Then the trends over time could be plotted and a better analysis conducted. In any case, not my engine, and I'm thankful for that.
Ford has adapted the 3.0L Lion engine with some new bits and it's appearing in the perennially best-selling vehicle in the US starting in 2018. There will be a significantly greater number of these engines on the road soon...and most will have a harder life than any Landie. We'll see how that plays out.
When I get my next "service due" notification, I'll have my oil analyzed and post results. Probably won't be until spring/early summer at this rate though. -
- Blackfly
- Member Since: 15 Jun 2017
- Location: Up North
- Posts: 466
touch wood my engine seems to be okay 15000k on the clock.
I am curious about regeneration though. The hand book states there is a green warning light that briefly shows after each successful regen. I do not recall seeing this light. I am driving 30 k to work at about 100kph my first adblue refill was at about 12000k so I think my driving style is normal. I would assume that regen is happening or I would have ground to a halt by now; My average fuel consumption is 7.8/100km so again it suggests that nothing is getting clogged up and reducing consumption.
F50, Fourtack, LR3 and now..............D5 HSE TDV6 -
- VeryDisco5
- Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
- Location: Southern England
- Posts: 63
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DieselRanger wrote:
If iron and other metals are increasing over time through several oil changes across a large sample size, then that is indeed very concerning for the 2.0L engine. Sounds like JLR needs a different oil along with more frequent changes for that engine. Either the oil is too heavy and isn't penetrating to where the wear is happening, or it's too light and it's allowing too much metal-on-metal contact. The dilution values vs the iron content don't really suggest the wear is due to dilution - if dilution was high across the board and metals were correspondingly high, then there would be a stronger correlation, but from that data set it just looks like poor oil choice on the part of JLR. Would like to see the rows be for each vehicle, with sets of columns for each oil change interval. Then the trends over time could be plotted and a better analysis conducted. In any case, not my engine, and I'm thankful for that.
.
The Ingenium has cast iron liners. Also the lab said there was a "surprisingly" low particle count. Mmmm... Put together this make me think that it's happening at the ring/liner interface actually during and shortly after each post-injection event. We know there has to be one hell of a lot of diesel put in there because of the elongated architecture, combined with the relatively poor soot burning ability of the 3-way catalytic filter coating (compared to SCF), So this interpretation says that it's not dilution per se that's causing wear in general, but specific wear in one particular place ( a really aggressive place at that) because of de-filming and other effects.
Regarding oil, they spec'd the engine for SAE 30 but the dilution drags it straight down to SAE 20 with only about 1.5% dilution. So we asked politely, "what's the minimum cSt value at 100 degrees for this engine?" and "Could we go higher than the 9.7 cSt of the standard oil when it's new?" and "Could we put a heavier SAE 30 in to start out a bit higher, 5W-30 or maybe an 0W-40 (thinking that the high pressure shear values of these oils might stand up a bit better to the onslaught from the post-injection). JLR answer. Total silence. Zip. Like they thought they were dealing with idiots. Oh well.
Effects of dilution by TOTAL OIL
https://www.lubricants.total.com/fuel-dilu...nd-effects
SCRF Architecture video:
After the turbo is the 110 degree bend, then the (100% useless for PR) DOC, then the DEF injection, finally the SCRF where the "DPF" is housed. Its technical name is selective catalytic reduction filter and this is how we know the coatings are made by JM, SCRF being their registered trademark. -
- VeryDisco5
- Member Since: 02 Sep 2017
- Location: Southern England
- Posts: 63
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D5 Eu6 NA Exhaust system compared to DS.....
It appears that the TDV6 could be experiencing a similar problem to that described above for the Ingenium 2.0 litre fitted in the DS and Evoque, but the architecture is a little more closely-coupled. In the diagram below the components have been labelled for convenience to precisely match the text of the workshop manual - the last component in the pipework would appear to be a three-way selective catalytic reducer, but it doesn't look as though it contains another DPF soot filter, hence it is an SCR, not an SCRF. The actual DPF is still somewhat displaced from the outlet of the turbo and sits behind the catalytic converter but it's nowhere near as far back as it is in the DS.
Compare this layout to the DS video to see the differences:
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- DieselRanger
- Member Since: 12 Oct 2017
- Location: God's Country, Colorado
- Posts: 768
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Deleted -
- DCCHO48
- Member Since: 01 Jan 2018
- Location: Dittisham Devon
- Posts: 3
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Order cancelled
I have now cancelled my D5 3L HSE order-not even considering a petrol one. Have totally lost confidence in Land Rover's ability to sort out the growing list of problems, especially the engine oil dilution and early service warnings-I think Land Rover are somewhat overwhelmed by the issues.
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